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Forget Cricket Talk about anything [within Board Rules, of course :) ]

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  #51  
Old April 8, 2004, 12:26 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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This is what Sharon offered:


http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact...2001.gif"><img src="http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact...haron2001.gif" width="500">
Click for a Full-Sized Image

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Zunaid]
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  #52  
Old April 8, 2004, 12:26 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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2003- : The "wall" Sharon is trying to build.

http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact...2003.gif"><img src="http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact...-July2003.gif" width=500>
Click for a Full-sized Image

?The Wall? being constructed by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon?s Likud-led coalition government?ostensibly to keep terrorists out?is euphemistically referred to as a ?security fence? or ?Seam Zone?. The word ?annexation? is avoided because it too accurately describes what is happening via the wall?s construction. The final route of the wall is as yet undetermined but on completion it will be between 450 and 650 kilometres long.

In parts the wall is an eight-metre high concrete barrier, but mostly it forms a no-man?s-land 60-100 metres wide with buffer zones, trenches, barbed wire, electric fences with sensors, a two-lane patrol road and fortified guard towers. There are also 100-metre wide ?no-go? areas on either side patrolled by the Israeli Defence Force (IDF).

There is widespread scepticism regarding the wall?s ability to keep out determined terrorists. Even the Israeli State Comptroller noted in July 2002, ?IDF documents indicate that most of the suicide terrorists and car bombs crossed the seam area into Israel through the checkpoints.?

The wall is built on Palestinian land. It does not follow the so called Green Line, which marks the unofficial boundary between Israel and the proposed Palestinian state, but regularly intrudes six or seven kilometres into Palestinian territory so as to incorporate illegal Jewish settlements into the Israeli zone. A decision taken last week has gone further still and proposes a 20-kilometre loop into Palestinian territory to include the settlements of Ariel, Immanuel and Kedumim.

Israeli daily Ha?aretz reports that the blocs incorporated in this sweep contain around 80 percent of the settlers in the West Bank. In all, it is thought that as much as half of the 400,000-settler population will be incorporated into Israel. Ha?aretz reports also that approximately 60,000 Palestinians will end up inside this planned loop, on top of the 80,000 that human rights group B?Tselem estimates will be caught behind the main wall.

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Zunaid : image edit]
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  #53  
Old April 8, 2004, 12:38 AM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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The pics do compromise the forum layout. Take long time even with broadband connection to load. Can't imagine with dial-ups. Readers might loose interest in reading the posts in this thread.

Perhaps pointers to the images would be a better idea.
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  #54  
Old April 8, 2004, 12:45 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Chinaman, I know you like playing the daddy of the forum. But...

[deleted: no call for that]

The pictures are fine. The people who are really interested and want to look at them will look at them ANYWAY. You don't have to psychoanalyze and predict mass behavior. People patiently wait and watch HUNDREDS of useless pics on the internet everyday.

What you can do is to find me the board codes on how to resize the pics to a reasonable size. I will then consider applying them.

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Arnab]

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Zunaid]
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  #55  
Old April 8, 2004, 12:59 AM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnab

----

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Arnab]
Arnab, that was completely uncalled for. A reasonably polite remonstration from Chinaman and all you can do is lash out with vituperations?

I am usually, and perhaps excessivley, tolerant but this even exceeds my high threshold.

Consider this an official warning.

Yes, I am putting on my Fascist Moderator hat.

- Zunaid
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  #56  
Old April 8, 2004, 01:07 AM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Default If you wish to post large images here is how

<a href="original-image-url"><img src="original-image-url" width=500><br>Click for a Full-sized Image</a>

example:

<a href="http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact...2003.gif"><img src="http://www.passia.org/palestine_fact...-July2003.gif" width=500><br>Click for a Full-sized Image</a>
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  #57  
Old April 8, 2004, 02:28 AM
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Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Good job Zunaid!

no man is above the law or below it...

I don't even know what this thread is all about and here I am posting... I like fights!
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  #58  
Old April 8, 2004, 10:08 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zunaid
Arnab, that was completely uncalled for. A reasonably polite remonstration from Chinaman and all you can do is lash out with vituperations?

I am usually, and perhaps excessivley, tolerant but this even exceeds my high threshold.

Consider this an official warning.

Yes, I am putting on my Fascist Moderator hat.

- Zunaid
Whatever. Chinaman's arguments about slow download etc. were unreasonable. Even if you follow the link, the pictures will load at the same speed. And I also put a disclaimer about the pic size before I posted them.

What irked me was his nagging penchant of "nak golano" in every afffair.

*****

Orpheus: Good job on the [].

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Zunaid : tsk tsk]
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  #59  
Old April 8, 2004, 10:23 AM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnab
Quote:
Originally posted by Zunaid
Arnab, that was completely uncalled for. A reasonably polite remonstration from Chinaman and all you can do is lash out with vituperations?

I am usually, and perhaps excessivley, tolerant but this even exceeds my high threshold.

Consider this an official warning.

Yes, I am putting on my Fascist Moderator hat.

- Zunaid
Whatever. Chinaman's arguments about slow download etc. were unreasonable. Even if you follow the link, the pictures will load at the same speed. And I also put a disclaimer about the pic size before I posted them.

What irked me was his nagging penchant of "nak golano" in every afffair.

*****

Orpheus: Good job on the [].
Had you phrased your response like the above, it should have been fine.

However, "whatever" has no truck with me and you don't get off that easy. I am still waiting a mature response to your post.

And you are digging yourself deeper in the muck with that peurile dig at Orpheus. That could be taken as strike two.
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  #60  
Old April 8, 2004, 12:00 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Man, don't give me the "mature" bs. Sticking to the topic and providing thought-provoking posts with well-researched opinions and data is maturity. Nagging relentlessly about petty, useless stuff like the forum form factor, size of pics, use of language, download time, and then giving warnings about such stuff is childish.

*****

Back to the topic: From the pictures it is pretty evident that the UN Partition Plan in 1947 was horribly biased. And the reason it went through was because the US (probably due to the pressure of the Jewish lobby here) actually coaxed out votes from smaller countries in the security council on the partition plan. But it was not unanimously agreed upon. All the Arab nations rejected the plan. A lot of countries abstained from voting.

Zionists, on the other hand, declared Israel's independence before the partition plan was finalized and was still being debated on. Zionists based the date of their independence based on the closing date of the British Mandate. Well, the problem is that the British Mandate was de facto invalid since the problem was transferred to the UN a long time ago. The question is then why pre-Israel zionists specifically chose that date. The answer lies in the fact that zionists had been preparing for a war for a long time and building her own army and ammunition. They declared their independence based on military strategy, at a point when they felt confident enough to defeat the Arabs and drive armless Palestinians over the new "border" that they just made up out of thin air. The goal was to grab as much land as possible.
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  #61  
Old April 8, 2004, 12:19 PM
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Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Quote:
Orpheus: Good job on the [].
Ah man I missed it! Moderators should have atleast waited till I read it! I am always fascinated by Arnab's creative thougths....

you not gonna win the Noble Prize by "attacking" someone who doesn't simply care about anything or plays around too much! (yes you mentioned sometime ago you CAN win th noble prize). Instead try to use your self-proclaimed bigger brain in the lab and invent something that we can all use...

A better vibrator wouldn't be a bad start!

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Orpheus]
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  #62  
Old April 8, 2004, 12:23 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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I am pretty sure you would have loved it Orpheus. And I am sure you wouldn't have felt offended or anything. We have a common brand of bantering humor that goes over many a guy's head.
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  #63  
Old April 8, 2004, 12:52 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arnab
I am pretty sure you would have loved it Orpheus. And I am sure you wouldn't have felt offended or anything. We have a common brand of bantering humor that goes over many a guy's head.
I frankly found it funny but we _are_ trying to maintain a G rating so I did what I must ... The burdens of responsibility...
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  #64  
Old April 8, 2004, 01:03 PM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Default my positions

no, im not a palestinian, im simply a bengali like most of you all in here.

the 'we' i was refering to is the collective muslim ummah which in 1948 vowed to 'push the jews into the [Medeterannean] Sea.'

someone else asked why i think that the jews should have their own state. the reason is that i believe that any people who are disticnt from all others and are legitimately oppressed should have their own state. this includes not only worldwide jewry but also the palestinians, ethnic albanians in kosovo, kashmiris, chechnyans, muslims in the southern phillipines, kurds, christians in southern sudan, christians in east timor, and all non-bengali kuffar (chakma, etc.) in bangladesh as well.

allah (SWT) says in the holy quran: "O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." (surah 49, ayat 13)
this means that humans were created with differences in order to learn and care about one another, not to act in a racist or ethno-centric manner.

afterall, our ancestors got a country (pakistan) because we knew that we would not get fair treatment in hindu-dominated india. then we found that we couldnt get fair treatment in a west-pakistan dominated country either. so we created bangladesh.

this may sound contradictory, but i dont really and truely believe in countries at all. they are just man made lines drawn all over the earth. in reality there are only 2 countries (with spiritual lines drawn on the earth): the islamic ummah and the land of kufr. the 2 should co-exist in peace, but i highly doubt that it will happen unless by divine will.

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by al Furqaan]
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  #65  
Old April 8, 2004, 01:43 PM
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Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Default LOL

that was pretty funny Arnab.. just read it through my "connections"! Although I must admit I didn't love it... was pretty dissapointing if you know what I mean! It's funny how our posts have same similar theme..

Sorry Farqan and Matured Arnab! Spread the intelligence.....

Hoping for a peaceful palestine... I am out!

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Orpheus : ahsdflhjsafdl]

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Orpheus : I am stupid!]
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  #66  
Old April 8, 2004, 06:52 PM
chinaman chinaman is offline
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Dear Arnab

For a person who, spends hours reshearching complex issues like middle eastern history, history of the earth, mind boggling theories of science, tune in heartful debate about class of classical music, keeps a keen tab on modern technological advancements to name a few, how difficult it is to appreciate:

that we, the mods, are entrusted with some responsibilities?
that we, the mods, are entrusted to execute those responsibilities?
that we, the mods, vow to maintain this forum in certain way?
that we, the mods, urge our member's active help to keep the forum that way?
that we, the mods, intervene when we see potential breach of conducts?


How difficult it is for that person to be nice enough to acknowledge reader's inconvenience when called upon?

How difficult it is for that person to accept duly issued warning like a man?

How difficult it is for that person to avoid some bad words in a community setting?

How difficult it is for that person to curb the temptation from making personal attacks?

And above all, how difficult it is for that person to respect any differences of opinions?

Think about it. You might have been working very hard researching for the article. I'm positive you will find your cool in no time if you grant yourself a little break and relaxation after some tiring work. Thank you very much.
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  #67  
Old April 8, 2004, 08:32 PM
unmad unmad is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by al Furqaan
you really spent a lot of time on this.

you gave the evidence and i said i would change my views but whatever wrong or illegal way the jews obtained palestine as their nation, they still derserved a nation. this is a complex issue and i think that we should negotiate for peace. im not saying that we should surrender but we should opt for a palestinian state with jerusalem as our capital. if we lay down our arms then perhaps they will give it to us. if not, then i dont know what to do...the situation will not solved until jesus (AS)returns.
here is what i think about your comment:

* there is a huge difference between asking for home for a homeless person and throughing the current inhabitant out in order to give home to a homeless person. if israel needs home, its them who should beg for it, not the arabs.
* your way of peace won't work on them. isrealis are bad to the root. they way the obtained it proves that, there is no way they will give palestine state peacefully.
if u go back from shakespare and oscer wild, whenever they need to portraited a villene, they showed it as jewes, every wonder why? (don't ask me for evedence, i know only "the marchant of venice", but i'm picking it from someone else).
* all they ever poposed about palestine state is like "swice cheese". a real country can't build on that.
*the only way i see the east west conflict ends is to saudi's have neuclear weapon. if u keep your door open, theaves will come. and the biggest fault of today's muslines is not being strong enough. so the only way to stay safe is to stay strong.
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  #68  
Old April 9, 2004, 04:11 AM
fab fab is offline
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Quote:
They declared their independence based on military strategy, at a point when they felt confident enough to defeat the Arabs and drive armless Palestinians over the new "border" that they just made up out of thin air. The goal was to grab as much land as possible.
So now comes to Furqaan's point. Were the Arabs in the right when they invaded in 1948, and then in the 1967? These two failed wars resulted in more loss of land for them!

Anyhow, what I don't understand is, why Israel is permitted to build settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.. And why no one objects (apart from the suicide bombers).
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  #69  
Old April 9, 2004, 06:43 AM
sage sage is offline
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May I ask why do we care about middle east so much? We don't leave there. They call us miscin anyway. :P
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  #70  
Old April 9, 2004, 12:24 PM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by fab
Quote:
They declared their independence based on military strategy, at a point when they felt confident enough to defeat the Arabs and drive armless Palestinians over the new "border" that they just made up out of thin air. The goal was to grab as much land as possible.
So now comes to Furqaan's point. Were the Arabs in the right when they invaded in 1948, and then in the 1967? These two failed wars resulted in more loss of land for them!
The Arab countries didn't "attack" in 1948. They actually retaliated to protect Palestinians from the Zionist military attacks. The Zionists, having declared their state, were driving Palestinians out of the malleable, ever-changing Israeli "border". The use of the term "border" is not really appropriate. Zionists were basically grabbing as much land as they could, by depopulating Palestinian villages through force, killing and driving away hundreds of thousands of armless native people who lived in those areas for hundreds of years.

There are three parties here. The arms-heavy zionists, the armless Palestinians and the armies from neighboring Arab countries.

The zionists had better local production of ammunition and weapons, had been preparing for a war for a long time and had a clear strategy.

The arab armies came from different countries with different agendas (some arab countries were more interested in grabbing the land than protecting the Palestinians). They were not united and their flow of arms and manpower was slow since their sources were situated in far away lands across the deserts.

What should have the Palestinians done? Let the zionists kill them and drive them away from their homeland without any fuss? What should have the Arab countries done? Suck their thumbs and let the zionists take over Palestine?

Quote:
Anyhow, what I don't understand is, why Israel is permitted to build settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.. And why no one objects (apart from the suicide bombers).
That's an extremely naive view of reality, devoid of any sense of history.

Israel is "permitted" to build settlements because Israel has been backed by the US since late sixties. The UN did not give any permission to Israel to build settlements. Israel has been condemned in the UN innumerous times for her breach of agreements. But the US has saved her and sided with her every time. Over the years, the US vetoed 29 security council resolutions to protect Israel from the intervention of UN on bahalf of the rest of the world.

Suicide bombers are very late by-products (these didn't start until the 90s) of a system where Palestinians have been oppressed in inhuman conditions for more than five decades. Their protests have fallen to deaf ears for such a long time that some of them have taken the extermist, lunatic path of suicide.

[Edited on 9-4-2004 by Arnab]
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  #71  
Old April 9, 2004, 12:51 PM
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Rubu Rubu is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sage
May I ask why do we care about middle east so much? We don't leave there. They call us miscin anyway. :P
not that easy. as for people like us, who live in usa, we do get discreminated because of being muslim. they don't spares us because we are not arabs. we get the same treatment. and i believe this israel isssue is the base of everything. this is where the root of the problem lies. so, we can't leave it aside that easily.
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  #72  
Old April 10, 2004, 12:14 AM
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al Furqaan al Furqaan is offline
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Default to sage

i completely hate it when arabs refer to us as 'miskeen.' it is true that many of them do this in the ME.

however racism is not a part of islam, and the prophet (saw) said, "he who does not concern himself with the affairs of other muslims is not a believer." this, sage, is why we are concerned about the middle east. after all, in the eyes of the muslim-hating, right wing christian conservatives, bengali or arab, black or white, a muslim equals a terrorist.
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  #73  
Old April 10, 2004, 01:04 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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I am not concerned about the Palestinians because they are muslims. I could care less about their religion as far as my take on the issue is concerned. Of course, religion plays a big role in this. You have angry, bigoted Jews on one side who think Israel is their "God given" country as written in the Old Testament and equally delusional muslims on the other side, some of whom become suicide bombers.

Religion, if it is not the root of all these evils, at least plays a very big part in deteriorating the geo-politico-economical crises between these two peoples. Religion and patriotism are the two most evil, brainwashing tools that powerful people use to rile up ignorant masses to accomplish their agenda.

I am concerned of the Palestinians because they have been unethically and inhumanly given the raw end of the deal.

I also support the European Jews, IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT, that is, when they were oppressed and persecuted in Europe and ultimately subjected to the holocaust.

But Zionism is a different story.

[Edited on 10-4-2004 by Arnab]
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  #74  
Old April 10, 2004, 01:27 AM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Well said Arnab. Religion/Ideology et al should not come into the equation. Justice should.
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  #75  
Old April 10, 2004, 01:49 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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Look, all of us here are basically powerless people looking at this crisis with whatever info we have. This info has been fed to us by our biased news media, our religious preachers, etc.

We cannot effect a change with such distorted visions of reality. We need to inform ourselves. We need to be aware of history. We need to be more educated so that we can make better decisions.

Religion and biased news controlled by the people in power always have, do and will DISTORT our vision of reality. It's our job to stay informed as much as we can.

Only then can we, the powerless people, begin to affect the system to produce any kind of justice.

The cultivation of education, logic, reason, a sense of democracy and justice, ethics, etc. is essential.

Get rid of religious dogmas. Get rid of blind patriotism. Look at the real world. It's just some stupid factions of homo sapiens squabbling over scarce geo-politico-economical resources. The leaders of the factions are driving masses to fit their agenda.

There is another way of effecting changes in the system. That way is to become a part of the powerful people. But powerful people inherently don't care about justice or democracy. They are inherently amoral, without morality. They don't care if things turn out good or bad for the majority of humanity. All they seek is control. It has been proven over and over again throughout the course of history. Powerful people have their own distorted visions about how the system should be run. That system is totally incompatible with justice and democracy. Whatever changes you make being a powerful person, you can rest assured it's not going to be in the interest of the majority of people.

[Edited on 10-4-2004 by Arnab]
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