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  #1  
Old March 23, 2004, 05:51 PM
fab fab is offline
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Default Are today\'s Muslims barbaric?

As days go by, I am beginning to subscribe to this view. Take a look at our wonderful repertoire:

Terrorism/Suicide Bombings
Honour Killings
Female circumcision
Acid Throwing
No of Freedom of Speech
Religious Fundamentalism
Genocide
Internal squabbling
Highest level of corruption

By the actions of so many Muslims, is it a wonder that the rest of the world think Islam is a dangerous religion? If you go to a mosque and try to question these things to 'experts' they blame it all on the West. Dark Ages.
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  #2  
Old March 23, 2004, 06:10 PM
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Standing with a signboard called "I am Muslim" doesn't make anyone muslim. Islam today in middle east has nothing to do with real Islam.
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  #3  
Old March 23, 2004, 06:40 PM
Shubho Shubho is offline
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this is not a middle eastern problem. this is a problem with all muslims all over the world. pakistan isn't in the middle east, yet they perpetrated genocide. bangladesh isn't in the middle east, yet look at the state of affairs there. nigeria isn't part of the middle east, and look at what's going on there. and what about indonesia? and the philippines?

generally, we muslims are all talk. "pray five times a day, wage jihad, denounce other religions as bad, and you'll be in heaven with 72 virgins servicing you 'till you run outta steam." less art, and more method, i say.
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  #4  
Old March 23, 2004, 07:00 PM
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Nasif Nasif is offline
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When I said middle east I didn't mean only middle eastern countries. I meant middle east as an islamic model. Theirs is the furthest from the truth.

Ofcourse the current state of islam is a global epidemic. Plagued by lack of education and "mollah-ism". 99% of muslims (my assumption) don't know what it really is their religion and what really is in Quran. They put their faith in "huzurs" and "imams", who lectures them on "hoors", lavish heavens. Common people is blinded by clergy (similar to christian middle age) and their barbaric philosophy. This has nothing to with real Islam or Quran.

Only way I see for people to get out of this self-destructing loop is to increase literacy (and I don't meant literacy to be only able to sign your name).
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  #5  
Old March 23, 2004, 07:33 PM
Ockey Ockey is offline
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Default Solution to our problems..

Increased literacy is all well and good and is probably the solution to most of the problems in third world countries but one really has to examine why things have gotten to where they are in mostly Muslim countries. Does anyone have any theories that they have read about or that they have formulated?

One theory that I'd like to propose is that the oldest Muslim cultures in the Middle East are what they are today because centuries ago they decided to close themselves off to other cultures and have formed a very puritanical form of Islam either for reason's of survival or for recognition. This form of Islam has transpired into intolerance and discrimination and has flourished till this day mainly because [start edit] other Muslims have not argued against it. The reasons being a) the geographic location of the Middle East and its proximity to the three holiest Islamic cities b) Arabic is a language spoken by the people of the ME and the Quran is written in Arabic and hence they are perceived to have the proper interpretation of the Book c) the financial leverage that the Arab nations have had of late on other Muslim nations after the discovery of huge reserves of oil. [end edit]

As for the other parts of the world, such as Africa, South and East Asia, where Islam was spread mostly through conquest, these nations have recently been given independence from imperialism and if given time, they will get their affairs in order. Having said that, a lot of the damage has been done by the Islamic teachings spread from the Middle East; and given the rate of illetaracy in the population Islam spread at it was preached by the Mullas. Because Islam is perceived to be a religion that is protected by God and cannot be changed, no one has really challanged the different schools of thoughts that are out there. Everyone believes their interpretation of Islam is right.


[Edited on 24-3-2004 by Ockey]
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  #6  
Old March 23, 2004, 09:23 PM
fab fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by nasif
Only way I see for people to get out of this self-destructing loop is to increase literacy (and I don't meant literacy to be only able to sign your name).
Osama is a qualified engineer. His right hand man is a physician. They sound pretty literate to me!

Anyhow, I think Ockey has got it right - "Everyone believes their interpretation of Islam is right." and the fact that our scriptures are so vague doesn't help much either.
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  #7  
Old March 23, 2004, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by fab
Osama is a qualified engineer. His right hand man is a physician. They sound pretty literate to me!
I was talking about common people. The ones who are duped. Osama and his gang doesn't count. These are thugs and extremists. Every society has them.
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  #8  
Old March 23, 2004, 10:19 PM
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Default I agree

the "Muslim" world is in crisis...serious crisis its fragmented and due to its sheer size and diversity is finding it hard to come to terms with its common heritage...there is lack of Muslim role models...we need visionary Muslim leaders who can rise above the pettiness and squabbling and the ignorance that is spread all throught out the Muslim Ummah and show us the way...until then we are unfortunately stuck with the Osama(s) and the rest...we need to pull together and get our voices heard (as Muslims) when other "Muslims" put the blame on "the West". We need to reach out where ever we are and set good examples as Muslims and human beings. Things will change for the better Inshallah!
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  #9  
Old March 23, 2004, 11:30 PM
acker acker is offline
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To quote nasif
"Common people is blinded by clergy (similar to christian middle age) and their barbaric philosophy. This has nothing to with real Islam or Quran. "

Nasif unfortunately many "common" westerners in the U.S , Canada , Australia , England , etc are still being taken for a ride by fast talking evangelist fundamental christian preacher's like Jim & Tammy Baker , Creflo Dollar , Jimmy Swagart , Billy Graham etc
And politicians like GW Bush , Tony Blair & John Howard etc unfortunately try to shape policy's to appease them.
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  #10  
Old March 24, 2004, 08:07 AM
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I think not all the blame goes to Muslims. think about it this way, due to opression, occupation, indirect or otherwise, many of these countries have developed these so called terrorists. Its a two sided thing.

Literacy will help, but lets look at the root of the matter. Most of these countries spend more on buying weapons, than on education. The US and UK have the same policy, they would rather spend more funds (which I add is public taxes) on weapons and so called "self defence" than on public health per say.

When these "Developed Countries" give aid, in reality they are just fueling these third world countries with more weapons for their war-mongering, in return for food. I mean have you realised how many African countries suffer from famine? They can grow crops, but most of their harvest they have to export to pay off their debts!

If you analyse those countries, most of them spend their funds for war than on education... how can they become literate? The only thing they learn is to use an AK.

As for barbaricness, do you fail to see how barbaric the west and so called developed countries are?

History is witness to the fact that it was US who obliterated Hiroshima and Nagasaki (how many innocent civillians do you think died)? Then Vietnam War...

"In America's war on Vietnam, the US forces sprayed 72 million litres of chemicals on areas of south Vietnam from 1961 to 1971. The chemicals, which included Agent Orange contaminated with Dioxin, caused many thousands of deaths and abnormal births. Today in Vietnam there are estimated to be nearly one million victims of Agent Orange, and the effects are going into the third generation."

Who could be more barbaric? There was once Brittish imperialism, and now there is the American imperialism.

The fact is as long as we are opressed and supressed, nothing will become of us.



[Edited on 24-3-2004 by Unknown]
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  #11  
Old March 25, 2004, 06:14 AM
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"They are barbaric, that argument doesnot justify Muslim barbarism"

I did not try to justify Muslim barbarism.
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  #12  
Old March 25, 2004, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
'Lord of the Ring' Movies unfortunatly describe the Darkest moment of Islam accuratly. It is very subtle but 'Lord of the Ring' movies true darkside is Islam. As they fight power of one and try to save middle earth from power of one. Power of one is Islam, King soroman is King Solomon of ottoman Empire and middle earth is Middle East. Hobbits are british, Smigles are indians. Anyway there will be dispute about that comparisons. Because it is very subtle.
Where did you read this? Interested to read more.
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  #13  
Old March 25, 2004, 10:28 AM
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Sage, kindly review these 2 remarks which I would like to dispute. I think you are putting way too much importance on the mughal empire. They were just another despotic dynasty in Asia along with dynasties in Japan, China and Persia. All in decline by the time the Europeans were out searching foe colonies.

Quote:
Fall of Indian Subcontinent is the Major blow for Ottoman Empire

Quote:
After the fall of Mughol It started the time of the Kings which is European colonial period
I see the turk/mongol connection but how can the otoman empire be equated with the Mughals, just because of common ancestry and Islam?

Anyway, really woke up me up in a rather dull morning. I loved your comparison between the trilogy and this new Orientalism theory. Please continue.
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  #14  
Old March 25, 2004, 11:39 AM
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Default I beg to differ

The other day I was attending a talk given by a Harvard research fellow in Islamic studies ( a Muslim convert) and he said the opposite. I believe his PhD work is in Sharia. He felt that there was growing awareness about Islam "as a way of life" particularly in the West where he felt Islam was a solution to the maladies that plague the society here...very relevant in other words.

Quote:
Islam has lost the purpose in this world. Islam is in decline.
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  #15  
Old March 25, 2004, 06:48 PM
fab fab is offline
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Default Sage

Quote:
Let me know what you think
Dude, have you read the books? Although you make a very interesting comparison, there are some factual errors in what you said. First Gollum/Smeagol is NOT meant to portray Gandhi! hahaha! There are no 'race' of Smeagols. He used to be a hobbit, but the ring turned him into an evil creature..

Second, the army of Mordor are Orcs, Trolls, Uruks. The Easterlings (the middle eastern type race) are their allies. Sauron and Sarumon did not create the Easterlings, and nor are they FROM Mordor.

Third, Middle Earth is not the Middle East. Middle Earth is inhabited by a number of different races (Elves, Hobbits, Humans). It is most likely the Middle East is where the Easterlings are from..

On the surface, his story does seem quite, for a want of a better word, 'racially stereotypical' (i do not want to use the word 'racist' ) , and the names and words he uses could mean anything if you do not read all the accompanying books. E.G. I thought Nazgul COULD mean Nazi Moghul. But it turns out from his _Guide to Names in The Lord of the Rings_ (A Tolkien Compass, p. 172):
"Ring-wraiths. This is a translation of the Black Speech Nazgu^l, from nazg 'ring' and gu^l, any one of the major invisible servants of Sauron dominated entirely by his will.". But then again, all the words from the 'Black Speech' sound uncannily like Turkish/Arabic/Persian to me.. Ergh.. i dunno i'm confused.

If you wanna find out more about the LOTR and make a plausible comparison, first read the books(!!) and also check out rec.arts.books.tolkien where you'll find a lot of LOTR nutters debating it out.

Oracle - you may like to check out the following (very interesting) article - J.R.R. Tolkien -- enemy of progress
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  #16  
Old March 25, 2004, 06:58 PM
fab fab is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pompous
He felt that there was growing awareness about Islam "as a way of life" particularly in the West where he felt Islam was a solution to the maladies that plague the society here...very relevant in other words.
What about the maladies of the Islamic world which Islamic Shariah has not been able to stamp out (in fact it seems to breed it quite nicely!)? Out of interest, what type of Western maladies is he talking about? I dunno about you, but I'd rather live in a society that has a high divorce rate, teenage pregnancy and gay marriages than a one with honour killings, acid throwing, no freedom of speech and corruption (hence why I am living in a Western country).
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  #17  
Old March 25, 2004, 07:25 PM
Zunaid Zunaid is offline
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Yeah, what she said. Read the books first.

Couple of comments:

Tolkien by profession was a philologist as well as a Hebrew scholar. He was one of the translators of The Jerusalem Bible and was initimately familiar with Egyptian mythology.

Tolkien himself said:
Quote:
The Numenorians of Gondor were proud, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many way they resembled 'Egyptians' - the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestory and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology': in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan - but this would take long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no overt 'religion', or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples). I think the crown if Gondor was very tall, like that of Egypt, not set straight back but at an angle.
That and his interest in Hebrew and Semitic language does go a long way towards explaining his choice of names and his creation of the various languages (he was also an amateur linguist).

Consider Gollum: The Golem is a figure in Jewish folk-lore. It is a robot-like entity, usually without powers of speech much like Tolkien's Gollum.

Here's an interesting link: >>> link <<<<

Yes, Fab - Tolkien was also a luddite.

Now on to Ottoman empire and how far it stretched. Even at it's largest the Ottoman empire never extended further east than present day Iraq.

Here are some interesting maps: >>>> link <<<<

Islam in South East Asia was spread not by any Ottoman connection but by traders and merchants (many of Indian origin). The Europeans and Islam arrived in South East Asia around the same time. Previously there was a mix of indigenous/animistic and variants of Hinduism and Buddhism. The latter two were brought more by missionaries and traders from India and present day Sri Lanka.

For a long time Muslims were a minority in the region until series of upheavals in Java and Sumatra over a two hundred year period saw the rout of the classical Hindu empires and the growth of Islam based entities.

Sumatra, Java and Southern Malaya (West Malaysia) centered around Melacca is where Islam took hold and then eventually spread. I would recommend a reading of the history of the Melccan Kingdom and Tun Perak in particular.

Now Frank Herbert and Dune fans can now discuss the Arabic/Arabic Sounding words he used. Hail Muad'Dib!

Cheers,
Zunaid
Yes, LOTR and Dune Fan.
But you must also read Anthony Scott Card and the Ender's series!
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  #18  
Old March 25, 2004, 10:46 PM
Shubho Shubho is offline
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all of this business of drawing parallels between LOTR and the islamic world is hogwash...but funny nonetheless.

i could just as well say that the evil emperor in star wars is mullah omar, and darth vader is osama bin laden. the storm troopers are all those jihadis. the death star is afghanistan...looks like a wreck in the first place, and then is blasted to bits in the end. tatooine is the desert in texas. luke skywalker (the hero) is george w bush. han solo (luke's sidekick) is tony blair. who the f is princess leia? for argument's sake, let's make that the statue of liberty.

that brings us to the major flaw in this theory:

says, darth vader "I am your father, luke"
osama bin laden is g w bush's father?!?!? Well, nothing's impossible. Maybe Barbara Bush was in Bin Laden Senior's harem for a while.
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  #19  
Old March 25, 2004, 11:07 PM
fab fab is offline
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wouldn't it be the other way around? (palestinian) rebels wanting independence using various (terror) tactics, like blowing up the death (israel) star? OMG I think you've found a link!
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  #20  
Old March 25, 2004, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oracle
Quote:
'Lord of the Ring' Movies unfortunatly describe the Darkest moment of Islam accuratly. It is very subtle but 'Lord of the Ring' movies true darkside is Islam. As they fight power of one and try to save middle earth from power of one. Power of one is Islam, King soroman is King Solomon of ottoman Empire and middle earth is Middle East. Hobbits are british, Smigles are indians. Anyway there will be dispute about that comparisons. Because it is very subtle.
Where did you read this? Interested to read more.
Wrong Oracle , Tolkien wrote the "Lord of the Rings" not long before the 2nd World War. Check out his biography and you will probably come to the realisation that "Moldor" is "Germany" and the "evil one" is Hitler
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  #21  
Old March 26, 2004, 06:09 AM
sage sage is offline
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As I said It was very subtle analogy. Ordinary or simplistic thinking process would not get it. 'Lord of the Ring' was a fantasy everybody could interpret it in their own way.


[Edited on 26-3-2004 by sage]
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  #22  
Old March 26, 2004, 09:32 AM
sage sage is offline
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Apnader reading habitter pradorshoni dheke lota kombol boier ekta chutki mone hoi gelo.

Chamoch are zihba er modhe parthokko ta ki zanen?

Chamoch zodi shara din souper modhe dubeo thake tobuo Chamoch buzbe na souper shad ki. Tulonamulok bhabe Zihba ekto choia tei souper ashol shad nite pare.

[Edited on 26-3-2004 by sage]
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  #23  
Old March 28, 2004, 02:11 AM
fab fab is offline
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Some people's tastebuds don't work properly. These unfortunates get confused about what is hot, what is sweet, what is sour or what is bitter
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  #24  
Old March 28, 2004, 02:37 AM
Arnab Arnab is offline
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I don't think muslims will ever be able to trump Hitler, Truman or Mao ze dong, in terms of body count.
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  #25  
Old March 28, 2004, 05:50 AM
sage sage is offline
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:P
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