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  #1  
Old July 5, 2016, 09:45 AM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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Default Everything about Religion and its relevance in modern society

I hope we can use this thread to discuss about the Holy Books.

I know religion has been discussed in other threads by hijacking those thread (I am guilty of that myself). The aim is to direct all religious discussions here.

If hope everyone remains civil when discussing controvesial topics. We can all learn from each other or choose to disagree with one another (that is all of our right).

Mods: If you feel that BC is no place to discuss such a topic than feel free to remove or lock the thread.

Hope no one is banned!!
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  #2  
Old July 5, 2016, 09:52 AM
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Agreed Tonmoy, religion has played its part in our lives good or bad. Shying away from discussion regarding religion is something we are all guilty of. As as kid I was told not ask too many questions as it would lead me towards loosing my Imaan and eventual munafiqat or murtadat, may have been the case with many others here as well(I don't know for sure). I don't have that hang up anymore.If the forum rules allow for it, I am okay. If not I will have these discussions elsewhere.

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  #3  
Old July 5, 2016, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
রাতভর ধর্মীয় বই পড়ে জঙ্গিরা

উদ্ধার হওয়া লোকজন পুলিশকে জানান, আটক করার পর জঙ্গিরা জিম্মিদের ধর্মীয় পরিচয় জেনে নেয়। অনেককে তারা কলেমা-সূরা পাঠ করতে বলে। যারা তা পারেন, তাদের আলাদা করা হয়, চলে যাওয়ার সুযোগও দেওয়া হয়। তবে অনেকেরই আতঙ্কে হেঁটে বের হওয়ার অবস্থা ছিল না। কেননা মনে হচ্ছিল, হাঁটলেই জঙ্গিরা গুলি চালাবে।

হলি আর্টিসানের হলরুম থেকে উদ্ধার হওয়া একজন বিদেশি চিকিৎসক পুলিশকে জানান, হত্যাকাণ্ডের পর জঙ্গিদের কয়েকজনকে তিনি রাতভর বিভিন্ন ধর্মীয় বই পড়তে দেখেছেন। জিম্মি দু-একজনকেও ইংরেজি ভার্সনের কোরআন পড়তে দেওয়া হয়। কোরআন তেলাওয়াত করতে থাকে জঙ্গি সদস্যরাও।
What verses they were reading??

http://www.ctgbarta24.com/%e0%a6%ac%...6%be%e0%a6%a4/
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  #4  
Old July 5, 2016, 10:28 AM
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I agree with Tonmoy. Discussion and understanding is important. Blind faith is not.

Let's be civil in our discussions. I assume there will be some disagreements but we can be respectful and civil about it.

I will start off with this understanding of mine. It might be necessarily accurate or correct and you guys might as well disagree.

---

the notion and the oft quoted statement that "Islam is a religion of peace". I have not seen that in any religious texts. I believe it was George Bush who mentioned that in the speech and popularized the term.

Islam is neither totally pacifist nor violent religion. It is just a pragmatic religion. It realizes human conflict and war is unavoidable.

The prophet and his companions were involved in many battles. But the way it set itself apart is through the conditions and stipulations that is set forth for these situations (i.e. not hurt women/children, not destroy enemies crops, not burn etc.).

p.s. I am a layman, not a scholar, semi scholar, or anything close it.

p.s.s. I am a liberal to moderate, somewhat practicing muslim.
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  #5  
Old July 5, 2016, 11:41 AM
Simin2011 Simin2011 is offline
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I am a believer of Allah but I don't think I know a lot of detalied informations regarding Islam.
I am tempted to put forth some questions and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That's not the intention. First of all, what does Islam say about placing humanity above everything? I mean can a muslim be cordial/friendly to a person of LGBT community even though he does not support the idea of it?
Doesn't out religion tell, God is the ultimate decider? No mere mortals can decide who's true Imaandaar and who's not? In that case, the terroists do not have the right to call anyone kafir and neither do we have been given the privilege of declaring them un-islamic.. isn't it?
Again apologies if I offend anyone.
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  #6  
Old July 5, 2016, 11:55 AM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simin2011
I am a believer of Allah but I don't think I know a lot of detalied informations regarding Islam.
I am tempted to put forth some questions and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That's not the intention. First of all, what does Islam say about placing humanity above everything? I mean can a muslim be cordial/friendly to a person of LGBT community even though he does not support the idea of it?
Doesn't out religion tell, God is the ultimate decider? No mere mortals can decide who's true Imaandaar and who's not? In that case, the terroists do not have the right to call anyone kafir and neither do we have been given the privilege of declaring them un-islamic.. isn't it?
Again apologies if I offend anyone.
Please someone here correct me if I am wrong.

The act of homosexuality is a sin...... But it is no less or more of a sin than pre-marital sex.

My personal opinion:
It is entirely my personal belief that "homosexuality" is not a choice since I can never be homosexual even if I want to be. As a result since God made you that way so it cannot be a sin to be one. Again that is entirely my personal deduction. Most people I know would disagree with me. Take it how you want it.
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  #7  
Old July 5, 2016, 01:40 PM
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Good Question Simin. My personal opinion....

Homosexuality is not a choice. But quran says its a great sin. Allah destroyed a locality because of this. (The sorty of Lut pbuh). Having said that Muslims can be/SHOULD be friendly to a homosexal person. Although they share different ideology and life style but by no means they are our enemy. We should treat them with respect. We should also respect someone who does not practice our religion. Be it Hindu, Christian, agnostic or atheist. Just because someone is criticizing our religio, we have no rights to go out there and slit his throat.

We have no rights to call someone kafir. How can we say someone a kafir and will end up in jahannam when God is the ultimate decider? Just because one practices Islam doesnt guarantee him/her heaven. Those who say it does, has no clue.
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  #8  
Old July 5, 2016, 02:22 PM
Simin2011 Simin2011 is offline
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Hey Roman. I pretty much share the same opinion as you do. If God is the ultimate decider, I don't see why anyone should take the responsibilty upon themselves and execute believers of other religions as if it's their imaani duty. It's sad that few verses taken totally out of context can generate so much hatred in the terrorists' hearts.

@ Tonmoy,
If Homosexuality is not a choice, then God knows the best. I won't say anything more. I don't hate them. Nobody should. They should not be given death penalties because it's not their fault in the first place.
Religion should be a personal matter. I believe in "Live and let live". As long as nobody is unjustly attacking you for your faith, there is no reason to cast terror in people's lives by brutally killing off innocents.
I don't believe God will hate me for wanting a peaceful world where nobody causes death to innocents.
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  #9  
Old July 5, 2016, 02:49 PM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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I request someone who is well versed in Quran to explain Slavery in Islam specifically the fact that you can have sex with female prisoners of war. Basically a concubine becomes permissible to a man who owns her. I believe it is verse 4:24 in the holy book.

regards
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  #10  
Old July 5, 2016, 05:02 PM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anik SH
What verses they were reading??

http://www.ctgbarta24.com/%e0%a6%ac%...6%be%e0%a6%a4/
Hi Anik,
No one knows what the terrorist were reading...

However I can assume one of the verses they are referring to is

98:6
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

Source
http://quran.com/98/6


Would be really glad if someone can shed some light on this verse. What is the context?
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  #11  
Old July 5, 2016, 07:21 PM
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bujhee kom bujhee kom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roman
Good Question Simin. My personal opinion....

Homosexuality is not a choice. But quran says its a great sin. Allah destroyed a locality because of this. (The sorty of Lut pbuh). Having said that Muslims can be/SHOULD be friendly to a homosexal person. Although they share different ideology and life style but by no means they are our enemy. We should treat them with respect. We should also respect someone who does not practice our religion. Be it Hindu, Christian, agnostic or atheist. Just because someone is criticizing our religio, we have no rights to go out there and slit his throat.

We have no rights to call someone kafir. How can we say someone a kafir and will end up in jahannam when God is the ultimate decider? Just because one practices Islam doesnt guarantee him/her heaven. Those who say it does, has no clue.
My dearest Roman, an absolutely beautiful post. It shows your beautiful heart and mind. The world needs souls like yours.

---

My dearest Tonmoy, an excellent thread. You exhibit great respect to others and are asking some very thoughtful questions.

Excellent discussion going on in here...Simin, Mufstafa and Sylhety Beta...also Dolcevita from the other thread, you guys are developing a wonderful conversation in a genuinely stimulating and respectful manner.
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  #12  
Old July 5, 2016, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simin2011
I am a believer of Allah but I don't think I know a lot of detalied informations regarding Islam.
I am tempted to put forth some questions and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. That's not the intention. First of all, what does Islam say about placing humanity above everything? I mean can a muslim be cordial/friendly to a person of LGBT community even though he does not support the idea of it?
Doesn't out religion tell, God is the ultimate decider? No mere mortals can decide who's true Imaandaar and who's not? In that case, the terroists do not have the right to call anyone kafir and neither do we have been given the privilege of declaring them un-islamic.. isn't it?
Again apologies if I offend anyone.
To him our soul belongs, I seek refuge.

I am not a scholar. My understanding of this is, LGBT people are Allah Subhana watala's creation. Yet they cannot be as bad as "Pheraun", who declared he was "god" Astagfirullah. Even to him Musa (A) and harun (A) was sent and was told specifically to

"say (warm) to him in GENTLE WORDS".

Allah didn't ask the Prophets to go kill him, or destroy him or be his Manager.

For the people of Lut (A), Allah didn't instruct Lut (A) to destroy them, fight against them. He was only a warner, just like ALL other Prophets. It is Allah, who decrees punishment.

If the Prophets are only a warner, they how come we, the bearer of Islam, want to become more than a warner? Why do we want to take up decree on our own hands without clear instruction from Allah Subhana wa tala (via Gibreal)?

We are to be gentle, humble, gracious to others so that, may be Allah would make us good examples and change their heart.

Remember how barbaric the Quaraish was and then Allah changed their hearts.
+++
Homosexuality is a choice. One can hate the action but cannot hate the person. One should let them know about their action and warn them. That is the extent of it.
+++
None of us are a manager over others. Nor we have the power to be come one. We can only speak the truth. The Truth is in the Quran. We should all start to read, understand, apply, and convey what's in it.

Not just go to Tawaweeh and standup and sit down and not understanding anything of what is being said. Or memorize heaps of scriptures and not understand what we memorized.
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  #13  
Old July 5, 2016, 08:28 PM
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Homosexuality is also present among animals and hence it is not a choice. People are born that way.
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  #14  
Old July 5, 2016, 08:38 PM
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I would like to know how many of you consider Sharia to be relevant in modern society. Would you prefer Sharia law over existing man made laws?
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  #15  
Old July 5, 2016, 08:41 PM
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No, Sharia law would have been apt during our prophet's time but way too many aspects of it is extremely primitive in current times. Not to mention easily abused.
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  #16  
Old July 6, 2016, 05:03 AM
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Religion/Deen requires believers to read, introspect and be learned. The ideal goal is for all believers to have a full understanding of scripture. In addition to the 5 fards, one should strive to be faazil/a scholar (not to be misconstrued with fajlamo or faizlami in Bengali).

One of the basic aspects which deserve special attention is the actual chronology of how the Surah(s)/Ayah(s) were revealed(Nazil). Barely looking at the Surah number is not enough.

For example:
  1. Surah Al-Faatiha is Surah number 1; but in actual chronology its number 5; it is a Mecca Surah.
  2. Surah At-Tawba is Surah number 9; but in actual chronology its number 113; it is a Medina Surah.

What's also very important is to understand the concept of Naksh(Tafsir) or Abrogation, a concept whereby a latter verse supersedes an earlier verse. Generally, Meccan verses are early verses and Medina verses are latter day verses. There are three types of Naksh.

1- Abrogation of one Quranic verse by another.
2- Abrogation of a previous Law in a previous religion by a Quranic verse/Law.
3- Abrogation of a Quranic verse by a Hadith/sunnah. Naskh Biltafseel-This one is controversial to some who feel that it constitutes tampering with the Quran.

I have come across several folks who quote verses from scripture liberally without reviewing these concepts. Its not just Muslims who don't study their scripture, people of other faiths do the same as well. This I feel is primarily based on need and applicability from a very personalized standpoint; in modern times people can and do turn to contemporary scientific knowledge and social norms for reference. This cant be stopped.

I do not consider myself a scholar or faazil, I am just a student from my days as a teen till now. Whatever I share is based researching whatever I have, of scripture.
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Last edited by Sylheti_Beta; July 6, 2016 at 06:37 AM..
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  #17  
Old July 6, 2016, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoName
No, Sharia law would have been apt during our prophet's time but way too many aspects of it is extremely primitive in current times. Not to mention easily abused.
Very true, and yet a mere mention of this will ruffle feathers. But then in today's information age; thuggery and threats don't get very far.
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  #18  
Old July 6, 2016, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simin2011
I don't believe God will hate me for wanting a peaceful world where nobody causes death to innocents.
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  #19  
Old July 6, 2016, 10:47 AM
Simin2011 Simin2011 is offline
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Sylheti_Beta and Tigers_eye, thanks for such wonderful posts. Very insightful. Appreciate it.

Just read the news of one more Bangladeshi IS terrorist, residing in Syria, who was also a former student of my current educational institute. How terrifying.
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  #20  
Old July 6, 2016, 01:17 PM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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While Homosexuality has been discussed in depth both in this thread and another earlier thread, I would be glad if someone takes the time to explain these two verses as mentioned earlier in this thread. Produced below for clarity

98:6 (Non-believers and compared to the worst of creatures)


Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures

http://quran.com/98/6

and



4:24 (Permission to have sex-slaves)

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

http://quran.com/4/24
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  #21  
Old July 6, 2016, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
While Homosexuality has been discussed in depth both in this thread and another earlier thread, I would be glad if someone takes the time to explain these two verses as mentioned earlier in this thread. Produced below for clarity

98:6 (Non-believers and compared to the worst of creatures)


Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures

http://quran.com/98/6
What is your question on this one? This is as straight forward verse as it can be.

People of Scripture = Jews, Christians, Muslims. Polytheists are idol worshippers. Associating anything with Allah.

If they disbelieve, then hellfire awaits for them. Disbelieving in One God and His attributes. Putting trust on anything else other than Allah Subhana watala.

The next verse clearly mentions who will be in Heaven. Believers.

The residence in Hell-fire is forever. Just like Heaven is for ever.

Those are the fruits that we will reap. We will not be short changed. Do Good and if our deeds are heavy, by the Mercy of Allah we will be in Heaven. Do bad and Allah is free of need. He doesn't need our prayers, suplications. He is the Exalted One, the Most High. It is us who need the prayers.

Allah is the creator. We are His creation. Ending up in Hell-fire is the worst possible place can be. When we had a choice to change the course.

That is what I understand. Allah knows best.
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Old July 6, 2016, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
...
4:24 (Permission to have sex-slaves)

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

http://quran.com/4/24
No explanation is needed on this one. We do not have slavery. This verse at this point, has no meaning to current day of affairs. We need to worry about the ones that is more related to our times. Zakat and property distribution.
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  #23  
Old July 6, 2016, 02:58 PM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
What is your question on this one? This is as straight forward verse as it can be.

People of Scripture = Jews, Christians, Muslims. Polytheists are idol worshippers. Associating anything with Allah.

If they disbelieve, then hellfire awaits for them. Disbelieving in One God and His attributes. Putting trust on anything else other than Allah Subhana watala.

The next verse clearly mentions who will be in Heaven. Believers.

The residence in Hell-fire is forever. Just like Heaven is for ever.

Those are the fruits that we will reap. We will not be short changed. Do Good and if our deeds are heavy, by the Mercy of Allah we will be in Heaven. Do bad and Allah is free of need. He doesn't need our prayers, suplications. He is the Exalted One, the Most High. It is us who need the prayers.

Allah is the creator. We are His creation. Ending up in Hell-fire is the worst possible place can be. When we had a choice to change the course.

That is what I understand. Allah knows best.
My only reservation was calling any non-believer the "worst of creatures". That is a very stong language . It is like saying someone might be a great humanitarian but he is the worst of mankind just because he does not believe.
Anyways, it is what it is. Thanks for the clarification.
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  #24  
Old July 6, 2016, 03:02 PM
tonmoy.dhaka tonmoy.dhaka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
No explanation is needed on this one. We do not have slavery. This verse at this point, has no meaning to current day of affairs. We need to worry about the ones that is more related to our times. Zakat and property distribution.
I hope you are right.. but it does give legitimacy in having sex slaves amongst the prisoners of war. Thanks again.
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  #25  
Old July 6, 2016, 04:31 PM
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As a chrsitian I would say spiritual renewal.
I guess that could equate in Islam.
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