Orph, I hate to bring this up but...

[Pundit]

aaaaaah....sip, sip, sip, gulp, gulp, gulp.....my favorite topic.

Orpheus, what did you just say..u will get the opportunity to vote next time ??

Is your whole thought process on this topic thus evolving around that fact, or is that the reason why you will be getting to vote the next time ??

Who know what twisted and secret criterions the INS uses ?




Also, what really is an illegal weapon ? I really am not sure ?

And my final question....to all...how much are the citizens "blissful ignorance" and "monetarily convenient" opinions accountable for all this "destruction."

After all, we do hold the Paks of 71 and the Nords of 39 accountable of .....what was it. ...... "blissful ignorance" ????

[Orpheus]

Yeah yeah. That's all what the brainwashed mullahs say whenever questioned about their religion.

Right! I am the incorrigible "mullah" who only yields to your "logical prowess".
I actually hoped for a $hit-free discussion this time unlike the previous one but unfortunately, shitters never change! Talk about Mullahs?

Lemme see, I have changed your opinion from "right" to "partially wrong" in the matter of two posts. I am sure if I can apply some more of my logical prowess, I could produce a full convert out of you.

Again the egoistic "I". I am sure unfounded-WMDs had nothing to do with it. Besides if you read my posts carefully again you will see only one consistent notion there! I do not see any changes of opinions.

Suffice it to say, I just told you a fraction of what I know.

Alright omniscient deity, no more necessary. Facts are facts! There is Gravity. Sadddam is evil. No matter what amount of database you pull out to prove them wrong, I promise you won't be tried for heresy but I can't gurantee that you won't be trialed for Stupidity! Like I said 91 gulf war was Hussein's fault - thus your "facts" to blame US don't hold!

Anyways, go on with your derogatory reply now! I am done here....

Now Pundit - long time no see.
I didn't know you were that funny! You should write more often. Although I must admit the sip sip gulp gulp thing was a bit corny.

Serious answers: Yes I will get the opportunity to vote.
My thought process and the voting has nothing to do with it. I try to be objective and not to be a hypocrite! Ex of hypocrite: living a good life in America, practicing all American thing but cursing it whenever possible! Often seen among Middle Eastern men.

I am not too sure about INS criterion if you are looking for some holes for yourself but the Constitution of United States says that you can not vote until 18 years old. I was a year short last time!

Illegal weapons are weapons you don't have permission to possess.

[Pundit]

I'm not sure if I qualify for a hipocrite, but i'm sure its better than being a purveyor of WMD to other countries, and then accusing them of possessing illegal weapons.

Anyway, the way I see it, I am just exploiting economically. Its not that I'm buying a BMW and leading the Americal "dream" with my gains.

[fab]

Originally posted by Orpheus
but Saddam was MOST likely to cause another 9/11. So we just removed a potential threat. (As I stated earlier, he DID have illegal weapons. We may not have found WMD but he did have the potential to develop em).

How do you know that Saddam was MOST likely to cause another 9/11? Before the war started Dubya and Blair showed so much evidence that Iraq had enough WMD to blow up the UK in 45 minutes. So if they knew about these weapons beforehand why is it taking them more than 4 months to find them?

Yes they some had illegal weapons.. Scud missiles that travelled an extra, what was it, 30km? LOL that is SUCH a threat.. Mobile labs that contained traces of Helium.. wow another big threat.

I'm sorry but these are lame excuses to blow the $hit out of a country and kill in excess of 3000 innocent civilians. And the fact still remains - the US was under NO threat from Iraq, and Bush and Blair told lies in order to go to war.

Originally posted by Orpheus

Like I said 91 gulf war was Hussein's fault - thus your "facts" to blame US don't hold!

Yes, the gulf war was Hussein's fault, but the US is hardly as innocent as you claim. In July 1990, the CIA and the Bush Snr administration knew full well of Sadam's plans to invade Kuwait. In the same month the US Ambassador in Iraq Ms April Glaspie told Hussein "We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait." Now, what the hell does that mean? You guys can do whatever you like we don't care.
Of course, from hindsight we can now understand this laize a faire (sp?) attitude of the Americans..

Originally posted by Orpheus
Serious answers: Yes I will get the opportunity to vote.
My thought process and the voting has nothing to do with it. I try to be objective and not to be a hypocrite! Ex of hypocrite: living a good life in America, practicing all American thing but cursing it whenever possible! Often seen among Middle Eastern men.

It's good that you are trying not to be hypocritical. I think some of the UK muslims (mainly of Paki origin I might add :P) are the worst. But that doesn't mean you have to be blindly patriotic and be blind to the wrongs that your country does! There is a saying that goes along the lines of.. one of the most patriotic things you can do is to question your government and its doings.

Even if this whole war fiasco doesn't change your mind about the total incompetance of the Bush administration, surely the current state of the US economy should?

Originally posted by Orpheus
Illegal weapons are weapons you don't have permission to possess.

Do you have any idea how many illegal weapons your own country has?

[Ehsan]

Salam to fab.

[Arnab]

Orpheus, dude, trust me, I can shred every argument/non-argument/justification/whatever of yours with the help of newspaper articles, quotes by officials, surveys, data, declassified documents that are ALL available on the internet. I can point you to all these hundreds of sources, link by link. Omniscient? Well, reading almost 10-12 articles everyday from every angle kinda makes you "omniscient." Don't worry about me, I am a superfast reader.

But back to the main point: it's not worth my time if you have already made up your mind.

[Pundit]

Well said Arnab and Fab ! Given my history of collision with Orpheus, I decided to go light from the go.

But wow, this dude doesn't even have one Gringo RBC, and we still hear all the jingoistic sermon !

Brainwashing does begin well before 18 in the most "democratic" country then ! What next, toddlers taking torch throwing lessons from the KKK?

[allrounder]

Orpheus -

Quote :

"Shame indeed, not because it was conducted but because of the WAY it was administered."

I do not blame you for coming to such conclusion. You will believe in what is shown to you.

But you if are really interested in anything or want to have some knowledge about something, I request that you first do your homework in that matter. Only then you will have the option of knowing the truth.

You definitely have not looked around to really seek the truth. May be too excited and confused about who to vote for.

You know too little about this war/Iraq/ and the intention of US Administration. I myself is not very knowledgable about all these, but I am willing to share something that I believe you are unaware of about your so called 'justified' war.

US have used depleted uranium (DU) weapons(no difference from using neuclear weapons) in Iraq twice and in Kosovo. The effects are still there and will be there for 4.5 billions of years. The effects have spread even to the troops.
To think that Iraq is now better than before, we all can argue about it but only the Iraqis will know how they are now and what their future will be.

Please read this article, hopefully you will learn something new READ" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/....stm">READ</a>.

I do not want to write a lot about it, because if you are really interested, you will definitely find it out yourself. Its all out there for all of us, we just have to open our eyes and mind to see the truth and realize what is going around us.

And to make it easy for you in deciding who to vote for, frankly wouldnt make any difference. All of them are the same. Just close your eyes and place your finger. Because most likely you will be voting without knowing a whole lot about the candidate. And if you try to know more about the candidates you will be frustrated and disgusted and decide not to vote at all. Now that will ruin all your excitement of being legal to vote for the first time.

[Orpheus]

Points well-taken everyone, especially allrounder and fab - can't argue with them. Thank You and yes I should go in quest for the truth.
But there is no such a thing as reading the "truth". It's either this side of the story or that side of the story. And not all of us have enough idle time or Arnab's forte of fast reading to read 20 articles each day from both angles.

I am well aware of some of U.S.' evil actions. They are obviously not saint. But then I am sure US is not as bad or the "opponent" is not as good as you guys portray them to be. In either case, I am still learning and hopefully I will have a formula to think more objectively!

Now, Pundit:

But wow, this dude doesn't even have one Gringo RBC, and we still hear all the jingoistic sermon !

First of all it's not jingoism at all, it's just what I think is right.
And what's with this Gringo RBC? My mom gotta be white for me to support America? I am sure you have enough Iraqi blood in you that makes you wanna defend it. Or is your Muslim blood so concentrated that you are willing to defend your terrorist "brothers"?

Please tell me what did your Muslim/Iraqi/whatever blood did for you? Since you are an American resident and have a good job in America, I can say that America has done a lot for you. It's good to support it (am not saying support it when it's doing something wrong), but just stop "supporting" everything that is anti-American.

Anyway, the way I see it, I am just exploiting economically

Exactly! The quintessential hypocrite!

[fab]

Originally posted by Orpheus
Points well-taken everyone, especially allrounder and fab - can't argue with them. Thank You and yes I should go in quest for the truth.
But there is no such a thing as reading the "truth". It's either this side of the story or that side of the

Orph, I guess it all boils down to what type of ideology you believe. But what I have found with most Americans (on the Internet and on News boards etc), is that their view of the world is black and white. Just like in Hollywood movies. The evil guys are evil just because "God" created them that way and good guys are always good in every respect. But reality is a shade of grey and the characters in life are not so one dimensional. Some folks become bad because of certain circumstances and allrounder has just given one such circumstance that could lead ppl to hate and therefore be evil to Americans.

What I don't understand about your stance is how you can agree with what Dubya and his neo-conservative friends stand for i.e. the advancement of US interest at whatever the cost. Surely you do not believe in ripping off the poor to benefit yourself? If this is what you truelly believe in, then I will shut up now. You are entitled to your opinion.

And not all of us have enough idle time or Arnab's forte of fast reading to read 20 articles each day from both angles.

See that is the problem. Americans just don't have the time to go and find out about what their country has been doing to other countries for the past 100 years. They don't realise that events like 9/11 is a walk in the park compared to events in other countries. They also don't realise that whoever they vote for in the elections will not only effect themselves but the rest of the world! So Orph, since you are lucky enough to vote, I think you should use it wisely.

Please tell me what did your Muslim/Iraqi/whatever blood did for you? Since you are an American
resident and have a good job in America, I can say that America has done a lot for you. It's good to support it (am not saying support it when it's doing something wrong), but just stop "supporting" everything that is anti-American.

So you are saying that we should stop supporting anti-American sentiments even if they are true? Can you prove that any of the so called anti-american things that have been said on here is not true? There you go again.. this type of blind patriotism is what caused many ordinary Germans in the 1930s and 40s to perpetrate extraordinarily henious crimes..

Anyway, the way I see it, I am just exploiting economically

Exactly! The quintessential hypocrite! [/quote]

I disagree with that train of logic. Pundit is using the skills he has in the US - that in itself is helping the US. He is working, paying taxes and contributing to the US economy. So given that, I think he is entitled to disagree with the government.

[Pundit]

Orpheus, again, I would rather be a hypocrite and not a looter of civilization in the name of blah blah blah..patronizing ideologues.

Also, I am willing to bet anything that your folks in their time in BD were all too keen to get imbued with the Socialist message of the day. And how and where from are they exactly ensuring your future prosperity these days..pray tell us ?

And finally, the wreckless abandon with which you associate all others who do not agree with "your" country's current administration, to terrorists, basically sums up your problem and of those who are creating the terrible mess under this one big lie.

[Optimist]

Do you guys have access to CBC? I subscribe to most of the US news stations + BBC and CBC; IMHO CBC has one of the most balanced views on international politics. I am sure you guys will enjoy

[Ockey]

Costly? Yes. 5 to 10 thousand innocent Iraqi civilians dead. At least one thousand Iraqi babies forever maimed by cluster bombs. And god knows how many tens of thousands of teenage Iraqi conscripts were killed, fighting lopsidedly against this juggernaut of world's best military and airborne nintendo pilots.

According to AP the figure is more around 3,300 but according to the mullas it's anywhere from 50,000 to 1M. In any case they are human lives, whether it be the millitary or civilian, that were lost. The question is was it too heavy heavy a price to pay for self-determination?

Source: http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/924810.asp

I do believe that Iraq can prosper to a nation such as Japan or Germany if they can somehow overlook their religious and ethnic differences. As for those who believe that Iraq's oil is somehow forced to be sold to the west...you need to take a class in economics. When Sadaam was in power Iraq's oil was sold but in the black market and revenues were only shared amongst the regime leaders. Now that there is an actual "free" MARKET for oil, there can be more accountibility. Of course, there is the whole question of driving down oil prices and loss of revenue to the Middle Eastern countries but that's a whole another debate. Besides I don't see any Middle Eastern country going bankcrupt...in fact, recently the Saudi's reduced supply of oil during the holiday season to drive oil up prices again.

That leaves with the question, what was this war about? Whatever it was, Iraq now has a future which (theoretically) can be determined by its people.

[Edited on 23-9-2003 by Ockey]

[Arnab]

Ockey bhai, I disagree with many of your points. But I will leave it at that, for now. I have way too much homework on my hands to get engaged in this again.

[Arnab]

About the body count, check out this site(NOT run by mullahs ):

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

[fab]

Ockey, that's all well and good that the US is trying to be nice to the Iraqis by freeing them from opression la di da da.. I'm sure if Iraq follows the ideals of the US and whatever it wants, it too can prosper like Japan and Germany I wish them the best..

However, why are we only interested in Iraq? There a many other countries in the world being ruled by despotic crimminals to whom we don't give a rat's arse.

Anyhow, it has to be about either Israel or oil. I think it's a mixture of both, especially oil. Not to sell it and get profits, but to control it. Saddam was selling Iraq's oil in Euros and the Iranian mullahs were thinking to start selling their oil in Euros too. If this trend was to continue, that would be catastrophic to the US economy. For more information you can read this if you like: link

[Ockey]

Looks like an interesting article fab. Will make it a point to finish reading it.

But my point was: whatever the justification for the war might have been (and I am not sure if it can ever be justifiable), the Iraqis I believe are better off now, even if some of them might not realize it right away. I know that is quite a statement but one day when I don't have much work to do I'll hopefully back it up.

Arnab, bhai I expected you to be a little bit more critical. Just the name of the site itself seems to suggest an agenda that would benefit from overinflated numbers.

[Arnab]

Hmm...did you even CHECK and read a few pages on the site?

Probably not.

Heh.

[Arnab]

A U.S. soldier in Iraq wonders: 'How many more must die?'

August 24, 2003

By TIM PREDMORE

"Shock and Awe" were the words used to describe the awesome display of power the world was to view upon the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom. It was to be an up-close, dramatic display of military strength and advanced technology within the arsenal of the United States and the United Kingdom's military.

But as a soldier preparing for the invasion of Iraq, the words "shock and awe" rang deeper within my psyche. These two great superpowers were about to break the very rules they demand of others. Without the consent of the United Nations, and ignoring the pleas of their own citizens, the United States and Britain invaded Iraq.

"Shock and Awe"? Yes, the words correctly described the emotional impact I felt as we prepared to participate in what I believed not to be an act of justice but of hypocrisy.

From the moment the first shot was fired in this so-called war of liberation and freedom, hypocrisy reigned. Following the broadcasting of recorded images of captured and dead U.S. soldiers over Arab television, American and British leaders vowed revenge while verbally assaulting the networks for displaying such vivid images. Yet within hours of the deaths of Saddam's two sons, the American government released horrific photos of the two dead brothers for the entire world to view. Again, a "do as we say and not as we do" scenario.

As soldiers serving in Iraq, we have been told that our purpose here is to help the people of Iraq by providing them the necessary assistance militarily as well as in humanitarian efforts. Then tell me where the humanity was in the recent Stars and Stripes account of two young children brought to a U.S. military camp by their mother, in search of medical care? The two children had been, unbeknown to them, playing with explosive ordinance they had found and as a result were severely burned. The account tells how the two children, following an hour-long wait, were denied care by two U.S. military doctors. The soldier described the incident as one of many "atrocities" he has witnessed on the part of the U.S. military.

So then, what is our purpose here? Was this invasion due to weapons of mass destruction as we so often heard? If so, where are they? Did we invade to dispose of a leader and his regime on the account of close association with Osama bin Laden? If so, where is the proof? Or is it that our incursion is a result of our own economic advantage? Iraq's oil can be refined at the lowest cost of any in the world. Coincidence?

This looks like a modern-day crusade not to free an oppressed people or to rid the world of a demonic dictator relentless in his pursuit of conquest and domination but a crusade to control another nation's natural resource. At least for us here, oil seems to be the reason for our presence.

There is only one truth, and it is that Americans are dying. There are an estimated 10- to 14-attacks on our servicemen and women daily in Iraq. As the body count continues to grow, it would appear that there is no immediate end in sight.

I once believed that I served for a cause: "to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Now, I no longer believe; I have lost my conviction, my determination. I can no longer justify my service for what I believe to be half-truths and bold lies. My time is done as well as that of many others with whom I serve. We have all faced death here without reason or justification.

How many more must die? How many more tears must be shed before America awakens and demands the return of the men and women whose job it is to protect them rather than their leader's interest?

[Tim Predmore is on active duty with the 101st Airborne Division near Mosul, Iraq. A 1985 Richwoods High School graduate and native Peorian, he has been in Iraq since March and in the military for about five years. ]

source

[Edited on 25-9-2003 by Arnab]