Collapse of Sunni/Shia and rise of the Koranist

[09hotmail]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
And about the prayers not being explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an (maybe they are as BANFAN bhai posted above): but for argument's sake say they aren't, then maybe Allah didn't intend us to pray in any specific way in the first place, which is why he didn't specify it!!

This is Danger. i know a lot but many more people hundreds of years know more. So i can not say o because someone some two people said this and this is ok. Also then you ask question what Allah intend us to do or Allah not intend us to not do and many question. If all million billion answer in one book is not common sense and so Allah already knows when he wrote the quran and send it to man so to understand he made man the best, so quran is easy to understand and no confusion.

Thousand of scientist and everybody knows the quran cannot be written by man because of its power. Many books get prize for best book like , lots of sell like harry potter book, but quran gets no money or prize because quran is priceless no prize so good that it can get it and BILLION people read the SAME book.

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
My point is why do we start off with the Hadiths and then go to the Qur'an to see if things are fitting well in favour of the Hadiths? Why don't we start off from the Qur'an, and then see if the Hadiths are being in accordance? I believe that would be more logical direction.

No you start with Quran always.
maybe i was not understood. let me tell you again. Quran is always # 1 like the 1 best mango ever 100% sweet and best for you and your friend and everyone in the world . But hadis is like many manogs some bad, some good, some less sweet like hadis but try a lot because everyone knows it is writing of man.
No one can tell you what is 100% correct because only Allah knows best.

[Purbasha T]

For argument's sake, I said. Don't take the hypothetical situations I described literally.

Originally Posted by 09hotmail
No you start with Quran always.
maybe i was not understood. let me tell you again. Quran is always # 1 like the 1 best mango ever 100% sweet and best for you and your friend and everyone in the world . But hadis is like many manogs some bad, some good, some less sweet like hadis but try a lot because everyone knows it is writing of man.

Exactly my point. So say we read the Qur'an, find out there are verses about only 2/3 prayers a day which doesn't match with the 5 times a day prayers (mentioned in the Hadiths) that we've been performing for ages. What do you do at that instance? Which source of commandments takes precedenc now?

(Again, I'm saying '''argument's sake'', and not saying that Qur'an actually says pray 2/3 times a day and not 5.)

[09hotmail]

Originally Posted by Koranist
So you can see its very mysterious why the Koran never told us about something as important as the 5 salat incident. As far as where this 5 salat came from some say it was how the prophet prayed while others say it was Persian and Judaic influence since the Persians used to pray at the same 5 times that Muslims pray and Jews pray very similar to how Muslim pray.

It is mysterious only if you want to find mystery.

In many years ago there was no computer so it was a book and a book cannot hold many many many pages of writing like a hard disk on a computer. So common sense why EVERYTHING is not there only Main points that are important.

Like maybe there is no mention of Cricket in quran because it cannot have everything, but you think allah knows about cricket too because he knows everything.

somebody long time ago ask
Does Quran say that you can not play any sports? What about Cricket?
and he got answer.
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question...4180636AAmxicc

Also if you are interesetd you buy the book - Quran and Cricket
http://www.amazon.com/Quran-Cricket-.../dp/9833221262

Also ask question to you if you pray less than 5 maybe 4 is it better or is 5 better? 5 is more than 4 or 3 or 2. so you already know if 5 salt is better than 2/3 or not.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
And about the prayers not being explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an (maybe they are as BANFAN bhai posted above): but for argument's sake say they aren't, then maybe Allah didn't intend us to pray in any specific way in the first place, which is why he didn't specify it!!

My point is why do we start off with the Hadiths and then go to the Qur'an to see if things are fitting well in favour of the Hadiths? Why don't we start off from the Qur'an, and then see if the Hadiths are being in accordance? I believe that would be more logical direction.

Excellent..... That should compel people to stop and think.

[zsayeed]

BanFan Bhai, Koranist Bhai, Nasif Bhai, BD2015 Bhai and others

I have indeed learned from you all today - more than I have been able to digest. I am forever grateful. This is a great thread. I shall have to come to this thread over and over again to digest.

Thank you so much for all this. I am glad Z Bhai found this thread and returned to us.

I am thanking 09 Bro too. If he didn't ask, I wouldn't have known, or been exposed to so much.

[zsayeed]

Thanks for the video link Koranist, I had no idea - really.

And 09 Bro, what are you saying? The Quran itself claims Completeness! You are speaking of Hard Drive space?!

[BANFAN]

PRAYERS IN QURAN AND IT'S TIMINGS:

Three Prayers Mentioned By Name in Quran:

1- Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)24:58
2- Salat Al-Isha (Night Prayer)24:58
3- Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) 2:238.

Timings have been precisely mentioned:

1- Timing for Fazr and Isha: "You shall observe the Salat (Contact Prayers) at the ends of the day, and zulufann min al-layl (in the near parts of the night)" 11:114

Firstly, The word is precise, 'Ends of the day' - we know there are two ends of the day.
Secondly, in the near parts of the night - that means before sun rise and after sunset, the near hour... Means an hour or so.

2- Timing for middle prayer: "You shall observe the Salat from the 'duluk al shams' (when the sun declines from its highest point) up till the 'ghasaq al-layl' (the darkness of the night)" 17:78

This one really needs no explanation, we otherwise understand by our knowledge also that the middle of the day is when the sun is on top and it ends when the darkness of the night starts.

Point to note is that, these are the compulsory prayers. You can pray all day and all night, as much as you want to earn maximum blessings from Allah. There are some Myths in Hadith about salat, that you can't pray in certain times etc... These are all false. Allah has never forbidden anyone to pray at any time ... he cannot. The only time Allah mentioned that you can't say prayer is: When you are intoxicated and can't make proper sense of what you say.

Has Allah forgotten to say about the other two prayers? Although it's an absurd question, but that comes because of man made 5 times prayer. Instead of going into a lengthy answer, I would just quote a few verses:

“He said, "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a record. My Lord never errs, nor does He forget." 20:52

“These are God's revelations (Quran) which we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?” 45:6

“And when they are told, "Follow what God has revealed (Quran)," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?” 2:170

Allah never forgets or makes mistakes, how can he miss talking about two prayers? In the second verse, the word Hadith is directly mentioned, it's not a coincidence, it's his knowledge, he knew that at some point some hearsays called Hadith with try to take over Quran. Finally how much we love someone we never know if he was truly guided or not? Our prophets Uncle wasn't guided, Ibrahim's Father wasn't, Lut's Wife and Son wasn't, Noa's son wasn't ... So many examples are given in the Quran. They being prophets, Allah didn't keep their request of guiding or excusing them, who are we?

Allah has made Salat so simple ... Infact he didn't want us to have all these troubles of having to go for andolons etc for prayer breaks during office hours. Two prayers you are at home and the third is during your lunch break. He has made it easy for us to be religious without making a noise, even it an all Christian community. But our fanaticism with Hadith is making all the trouble and clashes. Which are unnecessary and can't be the requirement of peace, as in Islam. He is all knowing, our ignorance makes all troubles.

Jumna Prayer:

62:9 O you who believe, when the call to prayer is sounded on the day of “jummah”, you shall hasten to the commemoration of God, and drop all business: this is for your own good, if you only knew.

62:10 And when the prayer is ended, you shall spread out throughout the land to seek God’s bounties; and remember God frequently so you may succeed.

The choice of words is very precise again. The word Jummah means congregation, the day has also been named due to this prayer. No timing has been mentioned for this prayer since there is only one prayer during day, so that wasn't necessary. This also confirms that there are only three prayers given by Allah.

The call for prayer is also specifically mentioned only for this prayer because this is the only prayer that's compulsory to say in congregation/jamaat. Hadith, by declaring some Bonus Points for Jamaat, created two day-jobs in each Moholla for no genuine religious reasons. Quran never says, directly/indirectly/implied that if you pray in Jamaat, you will get more blessings/Sawab etc.

Allah made every thing easy for us...that's what He says in Quran. It's we who are making it complicated and blame Allah for being illogical. I know many people who likes to say prayer, but there are so many troubles/does/don'ts attached to it by Hadith, that it really makes practicing islam very difficult. Let's follow Allah and the easiest way that he has prescribed, making it difficult doesn't earn us anything extra, rather we are likely to be penalized for violating his orders.

[Koranist]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
PRAYERS IN QURAN AND IT'S TIMINGS:



Point to note is that, these are the compulsory prayers. You can pray all day and all night, as much as you want to earn maximum blessings from Allah. There are some Myths in Hadith about salat, that you can't pray in certain times etc... These are all false. Allah has never forbidden anyone to pray at any time ... he cannot. The only time Allah mentioned that you can't say prayer is: When you are intoxicated and can't make proper sense of what you say.

Has Allah forgotten to say about the other two prayers? Although it's an absurd question, but that comes because of man made 5 times prayer. Instead of going into a lengthy answer, I would just quote a few verses:



Allah never forgets or makes mistakes, how can he miss talking about two prayers? In the second verse, the word Hadith is directly mentioned, it's not a coincidence, it's his knowledge, he knew that at some point some hearsays called Hadith with try to take over Quran. Finally how much we love someone we never know if he was truly guided or not? Our prophets Uncle wasn't guided, Ibrahim's Father wasn't, Lut's Wife and Son wasn't, Noa's son wasn't ... So many examples are given in the Quran. They being prophets, Allah didn't keep their request of guiding or excusing them, who are we?

Allah has made Salat so simple ... Infact he didn't want us to have all these troubles of having to go for andolons etc for prayer breaks during office hours. Two prayers you are at home and the third is during your lunch break. He has made it easy for us to be religious without making a noise, even it an all Christian community. But our fanaticism with Hadith is making all the trouble and clashes. Which are unnecessary and can't be the requirement of peace, as in Islam. He is all knowing, our ignorance makes all troubles.

Jumna Prayer:


The choice of words is very precise again. The word Jummah means congregation, the day has also been named due to this prayer. No timing has been mentioned for this prayer since there is only one prayer during day, so that wasn't necessary. This also confirms that there are only three prayers given by Allah.

The call for prayer is also specifically mentioned only for this prayer because this is the only prayer that's compulsory to say in congregation/jamaat. Hadith, by declaring some Bonus Points for Jamaat, created two day-jobs in each Moholla for no genuine religious reasons. Quran never says, directly/indirectly/implied that if you pray in Jamaat, you will get more blessings/Sawab etc.

Allah made every thing easy for us...that's what He says in Quran. It's we who are making it complicated and blame Allah for being illogical. I know many people who likes to say prayer, but there are so many troubles/does/don'ts attached to it by Hadith, that it really makes practicing islam very difficult. Let's follow Allah and the easiest way that he has prescribed, making it difficult doesn't earn us anything extra, rather we are likely to be penalized for violating his orders.

Good point. Salat now has a different meaning. I spend more time doing zikr and dua while before I was more busy doing sujood and was more worried about finishing the prayer than focussing on the prayer. Also I used to not pay attention to what i was saying because it was very routine.

The reason why many people do not pray is they see the salat as cumbersome and usually conflicts with your daily schedule. The Quran gives so much flexibility and also the Koran teaches us to be self reliant and self responsible.

But at the same time there is nothing wrong with how Muslims pray. They just think that there is only one way to pray to God but that is not the case.

The Koran says:

Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin the good and forbid the wrong ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are God fearing .(3:113-115)

Here the Koran acknowledges that there are people from the Jews and Christians who are believers and pray to God. They obviously do not pray like Muslims do, but God does not see prayer as a singular ritual but it is a means to God.

The Koran is non sectarian and establishes the criteria of faith as those who believe in God and the hereafter and do righteous in life. It does not care who that person is and what religious community he belongs to. Its how these person has faith in God. Faith is a very individual issue in the Koran.

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. '(3:199)'

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. '(3:199)'

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

Sunni and Shias claim these verses are not refering to today's Christians or Jews etc and these verses have been abrogated. Well then what is it still doing in the Koran then?

Quran is peace!

[Purbasha T]

The argument is in favour of the ''Koranist''(s), dare I say.

Also the meaning of ''the only religion acceptable is Islam'' [3:19] can be so much more enlightening if the definition of Islam doesn't get box-locked.

[Sohel]

For a believing Muslim -- meaning someone who believes in Islam rather than an Islamist who believes in his own version of some sort of Muslimism in order to sublimate unresolved psychological issues through a political agenda under the guise of Islam -- The Quran is THE criterion, period. Why? Because GOD says so. Where does GOD say that? He says that in the Qur'an. Naturally, it is extremely important to get an accurate translation of what Muslims believe to be the Speech of GOD unless one dedicates his/her life to studying Qur'anic Arabic and the other religious sciences.

I prefer the Quranist translations of the Quran because it clearly distinguishes its mapping methodology when converting the sacred text into contemporary western English from Quranic Arabic.

More often than not, more literal transliterations tend to create cognitive gaps and fog and lessen our understanding of the scripture, because signifiers, concepts being signified and ellipticisms vary greatly from a classical language and its corresponding exegetical context to a contemporary, dynamic language and its corresponding, and ever-evolving linguistic culture in the age of the Internet and globalization. Moreover, the impact of self-similar, media-driven popular cultures in perpetual flux add to the confusion.

So I find careful translation rather than careful transliteration to be better in terms of filling-in those cognitive gaps and clearing some of the fog.

That being said, allow me clarify that I am not a Quranist but I do follow their scholarship with great interest. I find some of the generalization implicating all scholars, irrespective of qualification of the scholars and the priestly roles some laypersons may assign some scholars often without their consent, to be too sweeping for my liking.

I feel such sweeping generalization often leads to perhaps inadvertent misguidance and subsequently, unfortunate and unnecessary discord and division. Ironically, just the type of deviance the Quranists and others in the 1400-year old scholarly history of Islam struggle against.

There are duly qualified scholars who pray to GOD for guidance and see themselves only as erudite, well-intentioned and humble teachers offering to clarify and illuminate the path we may choose be on. To name a few, I have benefited immensely from Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad, Rabbi Ben Abrahamson and Father Christopher Cartwright during my ongoing journey in Islam.

The symbiosis of their Taqwa* and Noor** helps us nurture the light of faith in our hearts, offers us the possibility to submit to our Lord in better ways and love and feel connected to all of His divine creation in the process. They are men and women of great humility and love who are vigilant against de facto apotheosis ESPECIALLY when we try to make them out to be what they themselves neither claim nor have the desire to be.

There are also those, often of questionable qualification, who take on the role of intermediaries and partners of GOD. Taqwa and humility give way to insolence and arrogance as they choose to impose their truth upon others in GOD's name. Often their totalitarian venom leads to peacelessness, discord, division, demonization and at the end of the day unauthorized violence and other sins.

I find the conflation of the two types of scholars objectionable about some of the Quranist rhetoric but find the scholarship independent of that, as a layperson, helpful and illuminating.

Likewise, I am neither Shafi'i nor Maliki but find my limited exposure to the scholarship of those Madhabs, alongside my limited exposure to the works of Imam al-Ghazali, Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon, Maolana Rumi and Shaykh ibn al-'Arabi amongst others - may GOD rest their great souls in peace - immensely helpful and illuminating.

They nurture my faith, enhance my certainty, confirm and clarify the innate awareness of GOD we're graced with in our hearts, and give me the opportunity to submit better to our gracious and loving GOD and live a life pleasing to Him, the Dispenser of Grace.

Of course innate awareness of GOD everyone regardless of sociopolitical AND religious identity is graced with, and the higher reasoning of a healthy heart nurturing the light within it, need no excessive contemplation, but such contemplation may clarify our abstraction of an infinitely complex experience, and add to the quality of our willful submission to our Lord.

May GOD forgive me for my inadvertent error and insolence.

Peace & GOD bless~

*Taqwa: Absolute deference to GOD based on the constant, holistic experience of love, awareness and awe of GOD. "Taqwa is the the Islamic concept of "God-consciousness" or higher consciousness. Taqwa, as holistically elucidated by Quranic verses, is defined as the state of "being conscious of Allah", and willfully avoiding actions that lead the degeneration of this consciousness; while consciously undertaking steps and actions that will strengthen it."

**Noor: Light from knowledge, noble intent, righteous conduct, unconditional love and humility. "The link which binds being, knowledge and virtue. The word itself means light. Each particle of light that is reflected of the "mirror of the heart" projects spiritual knowledge according to distinctive types of colors. Noor is the spiritual light of a person. It is considered positive energy, or energy from God, which is supposed to clean a person's inner spiritual being. It emanates primarily from the heart, but can bloom to the whole body. A person's spirituality can be judged by the Noor emanating from him. Noor is descended from the heavens and manifests in those that are truly spiritually inclined."

[Sohel]

"He has decreed for you the same system He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it. Intolerable for the polytheists is what you invite them towards. God chooses for Himself whoever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent." - Quran 42:13

I don't think identifying with one group of another necessarily makes us deviate from the system unless we associate the group or our ego directly with GOD as His little helpers on earth. It is absurd and egregiously egomaniacal, in my humble opinion, for a monotheist to think that GOD, the OMNISCIENT and OMNIPOTENT needs that kind of help!

Diversity is GOD's deliberate creation and one of our jobs as believers is to find the common denominator in that diversity so that we may celebrate it, and vie in righteousness. The "most righteous" may exist in every group and they are considered "the best" among mankind to GOD. Islam as the original message revealed since time immemorial to every group, by divine scriptural definition, is anti-sectarian and devoid of religious-supremacy when religion becomes not a free choice without compulsion as suggested by GOD, but a political identity.

"O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant." - Quran 49:13

"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." - Quran 6:108

Only GOD knows what is truly in the hearts of those who believe themselves to believe in Him. Discuss openly, knowledgeably and intelligently, but let Him do the judging while we focus on our righteousness, especially before calling others to it. If not, religion ironically becomes integral to our vanity and antithetical to true submission, no matter how we manage perception to create the impression to convince ourselves and others of our piety.

Peace & GOD bless~

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by zsayeed
Reminds me of the "Gospels according to...."
and the Seven Samurai by Kurosawa...

You mean Rashomon?

[zsayeed]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
You mean Rashomon?

Yes Sir! Thanks. Yes, Rashomon.

Also one thing I learned for sure: Challenge creates knowledge.
Thanks to 09 Bro for that... making this thread so full of knowledge.

[Rifat]

Originally Posted by BD_2015




Must read book on hadith rejecters/ modernists and their mu'tazila influence:
http://www.qsep.com/books/modernists.html

Excellent Post Brother BD_2015.

We are actually rejecting the Qur'an when we Reject the commandments of Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam), to truly and properly understand the Qur'an we need to study the life of the Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam), we need to study the stages of revelation of Qur'an, it was revealed in stages over the span of 23 years.

Many of the Verses of the Qur'an that were revealed directly correlates to the event's that happened in Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam)'s life and his companions(May Allah's Mercy be upon them). if we just take the translation of the Qur'an, many of these verses are not really relevant to us anymore because we do not understand the significance behind their revelation, thus deviating away from the true meaning of the revealed verses because now that these same verses have been de-contextualized, they can mean whatever they want to the reader, and that most likely is not the same message that was revealed to Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam)

we need to love and follow Prophet Mohammad's Character, how he dealt with people, how he treated people, how he negotiated with his enemies, how he forgave even in the harshest of circumstances, how he approached and supplicated towards his Lord.To truly understand Allah in order to get closer to Allah we need to follow his noble example. as a result, if Allah wills, Allah will elevate our status in paradise. Allah says in the Qur'an:

Sahih International
Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Muhsin Khan
Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Pickthall
Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Surah Ali-Imran verse 31, Chapter 3, Verse 31

Sahih International
Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

Muhsin Khan
Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers.

Pickthall
Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).

Surah Ali-Imran verse 32, Chapter 3, Verse 32

Sahih International
The Prophet is more worthy of the believers than themselves, and his wives are [in the position of] their mothers. And those of [blood] relationship are more entitled [to inheritance] in the decree of Allah than the [other] believers and the emigrants, except that you may do to your close associates a kindness [through bequest]. That was in the Book inscribed.

Muhsin Khan
The Prophet is closer to the believers than their ownselves, and his wives are their (believers') mothers (as regards respect and marriage). And blood relations among each other have closer personal ties in the Decree of Allah (regarding inheritance) than (the brotherhood of) the believers and the Muhajirun (emigrants from Makkah, etc.), except that you do kindness to those brothers (when the Prophet SAW joined them in brotherhood ties). This has been written in the (Allah's Book of Divine) Decrees (AlLauh AlMahfuz)."

Pickthall
The Prophet is closer to the believers than their selves, and his wives are (as) their mothers. And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah than (other) believers and the fugitives (who fled from Mecca), except that ye should do kindness to your friends. This is written in the Book (of nature).

Surah al-Ahzab, verse 6, Chapter 33, verse 6

Sahih International
Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.

Muhsin Khan
Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

Pickthall
Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire.

Surah Najm, verse 3 Chapter 53, verse 3

Sahih International
And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.

Muhsin Khan
And We have sent you (O Muhammad SAW) not but as a mercy for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Pickthall
We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples.

Surah Ambiya, ayah 107 Chapter 21, verse 107

Sahih International
There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

Muhsin Khan
Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.

Pickthall
Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.

Surah Ahzab, ayah 21 chapter 33, verse 21

Sahih International
It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.

Muhsin Khan
It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.

Pickthall
And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.

surah Ahzab, ayah 36, Chapter 33, verse 36

Sahih International
He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.

Muhsin Khan
He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) as a watcher over them.

Pickthall
Whoso obeyeth the messenger hath obeyed Allah, and whoso turneth away: We have not sent thee as a warder over them.

Surah Nisa, ayah 80, Chapter 4, verse 80

[Purbasha T]

Rifat bhai, we all understand the contribution of Hadiths in the Islamic development. Of course, the majority of it may just have been able to successfully portray how Muhammad prophet (pbuh) applied the Qur'an in the practical world. But in simple words, what do you do about those Hadiths that quite clearly and unquestionably are in total contrast with Qur'anic teachings and sometimes actually contradict them? Or would you say there aren't any?

[Rifat]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
Rifat bhai, we all understand the contribution of Hadiths in the Islamic development. Of course, the majority of it may just have been able to successfully portray how Muhammad prophet (pbuh) applied the Qur'an in the practical world. But in simple words, what do you do about those Hadiths that quite clearly and unquestionably are in total contrast with Qur'anic teachings and sometimes actually contradict them? Or would you say there aren't any?

There aren't any Saheeh hadeeth that contradict the qur'an. but if they do, we reject them.
I am by no means a Hadith Scholar or even a Qur'an scholar, if I have any questions regarding these issues, i take it to them if i come across something quite startling(people who dedicated their lives to the study of Islam).

Even then, Hadith is categorized as Strong narration, weak narration.Weak narration may not necessarily mean that that particular hadith is false. Weak narration can further be categorized: a person in the chain has a weak memory, or a person in the chain is not considered trustworthy. this is why Scholars never take a ruling on Islamic Law from a weak hadith. many weak ahadith however, doesn't contradict the quran, and offers great advice, weak ahadith relating to worship are perfectly acceptable.

fabricated ahadith(Sayings that are made up) are rejected and not considered part of Islam since they were not uttered by the mouth of Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A"laihe wasallam)

anyways, Thanks for your Response, Purbasha T. I should look more into this issue.

[09hotmail]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
**Noor: Light from knowledge, noble intent, righteous conduct, unconditional love and humility. "The link which binds being, knowledge and virtue. The word itself means light. Each particle of light that is reflected of the "mirror of the heart" projects spiritual knowledge according to distinctive types of colors. Noor is the spiritual light of a person. It is considered positive energy, or energy from God, which is supposed to clean a person's inner spiritual being. It emanates primarily from the heart, but can bloom to the whole body. A person's spirituality can be judged by the Noor emanating from him. Noor is descended from the heavens and manifests in those that are truly spiritually inclined." [/I]

I think so also but such people not easy to see. I only know for sure example one person is lady gaga, always maybe she has lots of noor.
Lot of people agree she is not muslim because she is singer and also her dress but it is the mind and spiritual positive energy plus so much glitter bomb always shiny like noor in heart and all place like face and body too. maybe one day she will become muslim and allah forgive her too.

But Islam and spiritual not the same like I know one pir-fokir near farmgate many years back, no noor coming and always dress bad. So sometimes no noor but maybe lots of Powerful Spirit following command around the pir. You will not believe if you do not see with your own eyes.

All sunni shia koranist etc all bcos family member trouble after death hazrat Profet sallallaah and only one Quran is true with power. But sunni is the most close and maximum muslim are sunni, thousand years later.

[roman]

Rasul said "my Ummah will be divided into 73 sects, one of which will be in paradise and 72 will be in the fire". May Allah guide us and show us the right path.

[09hotmail]

Originally Posted by roman
Rasul said "my Ummah will be divided into 73 sects, one of which will be in paradise and 72 will be in the fire". May Allah guide us and show us the right path.

Right on brother. i am in agree with you. That is why 98-99%% sector is false and maybe 2% sector people go to heaven.

but be careful no one know bcos who goes to heaven and hell and only 1 person which is lovely profit hazrat sallallalah goes to heaven 100% for sure all the time, and maybe lady gaga give water to dog and she to heaven also. Only Allah is the best knower.

[Purbasha T]

Originally Posted by roman
Rasul said "my Ummah will be divided into 73 sects, one of which will be in paradise and 72 will be in the fire". May Allah guide us and show us the right path.

Source: A hadith.

You're bringing in a hadith to prove your point, whereas it's the authenticity of the Hadiths that is the topic of this discussion!

[Banglatiger84]

Not to mention the "sects" mentioned in the hadith may not be any conventionally named sect..

[roman]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
Source: A hadith.

You're bringing in a hadith to prove your point, whereas it's the authenticity of the Hadiths that is the topic of this discussion!

Dear Prubasha Vai,

This is not the first time that a debate is going on in BC whether Hadis is authentic or not. We have seen many knowledgeable and well-informed members like BD-Shadrul vai, BancricFan vai, Dawah Vai, Rifat vai have talked and discussed meticulously about this issue many many times before..Yet we see this debate keeps popping up..Not many members understood the importance of Hadis or were convinced.

While those respected and well-informed members have clearly failed to deliver the message, who am I to give it a shot?

I personally believe online discussion can hardly change one's view when it comes to religion. Thats why I am more of a listener than a talker when Religion is the topic..

[09hotmail]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
Source: A hadith.

You're bringing in a hadith to prove your point, whereas it's the authenticity of the Hadiths that is the topic of this discussion!

you miss point. point is not one hadis but what it means. like some hadis say profet sallallah marry six year old, some say seven, year, some say nine year old. The point in hadis is not profet is to marry young people, maybe he did but YOU think this is wrong, you ignore it and say it is not true hadis.

Another same story profet marry many many times. Point is that he is not a loose charachter but profet like sallallah is especial because he get permission direct from allah, so point is not many marriage but contact between firesta and direct connection with allah so he is able to marry as he want and also safe people.

Like long time ago profet go to visit heaven maybe you can not because you are not profet, and poeple will say you mad if you say you take something like flying horse but that was true long time ago because there was no airplane or rocket launcher, so flying horse like is the true story from ancient time but you can not proof or authenticity.

So many hadis you can know but only you with study and knowledge and open heart will undertand because allah knows best and guide you to true path.

[Purbasha T]

Originally Posted by roman
Dear Prubasha Vai,

This is not the first time that a debate is going on in BC whether Hadis is authentic or not. We have seen many knowledgeable and well-informed members like BD-Shadrul vai, BancricFan vai, Dawah Vai, Rifat vai have talked and discussed meticulously about this issue many many times before..Yet we see this debate keeps popping up..Not many members understood the importance of Hadis or were convinced.

While those respected and well-informed members have clearly failed to deliver the message, who am I to give it a shot?

I personally believe online discussion can hardly change one's view when it comes to religion. Thats why I am more of a listener than a talker when Religion is the topic..

Brother, just as I mentioned before I'm not yet decided on this issue. And even if one is, debating it out is good. And now that I've been seeing for a while (dating before this thread popped up) the rejectors have a better stance to defend for the time being, I'm just finding out whether the acceptors have any replies to the allegations made by the rejectors of Hadiths.

The best thing (to me ) is to listen to both sides of the coin and then make your own judgement because at the end of the day, that is what Allah is going to ask us about. No one else, but ourselves of the decisions we made in this life.

So debating online is not necessarily a futile thing, and as long as all of us have the intention of gaining knowledge here and not to just to win an argument, we'd be on the right track. Gaining knowledge has no end.

[zsayeed]

I agree with Purbasha, Had it not been for debates from 09 bhai, Lot of information would not have been shared by others and known by me. Kudos for that.

And, making a statement that such and such are knowledgeable and hence debate is futile is of counter-productive value. Have a question, doubt, voice it.