Who is the better all rounder overall in ODI & Test?

[Rubayed]

Hi there, i m keen to know what u all banglacricket members think of it. I know Flintoff played really well in this Ashes series but Kallis have been doing quite well consistently for a long long time. Do u guys consider Freddy Flintoff or Jacques Kallis as the best all rounder among all current players? Answer please!

Edited on, September 29, 2005, 5:47 AM GMT, by Rubayed.
Reason: typo

[AsifTheManRahman]

Kallis. The guy has been amazing over a long period of time, which Flintoff hasn't. Freddie might have a chance if you ask this question ten years from now.

[thebest]

Kallis no longer an allrounder. He is a pure batsman now. After the demise of Cairns there are only 2 allrounder Freddi, Streak and Gilli. Razzak, Vass and Boje might come close. An allrounder must be in the team as a batsman or as a bowler. Kallis no longer come to SA as bowler. Razzak, Vaas and Boje are close but might or might not play as batsman.

[Tigers_eye]

a bit confusing to me. Freddie a bowler oriented all rounder, kallis a batsman oriented all rounder. Is a century better than a 5 wicket haul?

In current stage not looking at the past, freddie by miles. heck he is the best player in Cricket.

[Banglatiger84]

Flintoff, the best player in cricket? give me a break!

On current form, Flintoff is the better all -rounder, however Kallis may still be the better player.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally posted by Banglatiger84
Flintoff, the best player in cricket? give me a break!

Why wouldn't he be? He got the player of the year award.
PCA Player of the Year

Who else has done more than him with the bat and ball within the last 18 months?

Edited on, September 29, 2005, 8:08 PM GMT, by Cats_eye.

[Rubayed]

Originally posted by Cats_eye

Why wouldn't he be? He got the player of the year award.
PCA Player of the Year

Who else has done more than him with the bat and ball within the last 18 months?

Edited on, September 29, 2005, 8:08 PM GMT, by Cats_eye.

Kallis' batting average is almost double than Flintoff in Test cricket in the last year or so...their career bowling average is also the same. So to me Kallis is definitely the better all rounder till now simply because he has been doing it for a long time consistently, as for Flintoff he is definitely one of the most exciting circketers and perhaps in near future, he might be one of the best all rounders in cricket but he is not yet as good as Kallis. Flintoff is yet to prove himself as an allrounder in the subcontinent.

[James90]

No "Khaled Mahmud" in this poll? What an outrage!

I voted for Flintoff because he's a much better bowler IMO. Kallis is a bit one dimentional. Kallis is predominantly a test batsman while Flintoff is a match winner.

[Spitfire_x86]

Kallis himself won't consider him as a true allrounder.

After retirement of Cairns from Test cricket, Flintoff is the only true allrounder.

[Rob]

This is a non issue. Flintoff without a shadow of a doubt because Kallis isn't even an allrounder anymore.

Would Kallis get into South Africa's team for his bowling alone? No.

Would Flintoff get into Englands team for his batting or bowling alone? Yes. Remember last year when ne just played as a batsman for England? And in SA when his batting was rubbish but he was Englands best bowler?

That is what makes a true allrounder. Someone who can get into a team for the batting or bowling discipline alone. Kallis does not fall into this category, Flintoff does.

End of story.

And as for Kallis bowling record in the last year, his average is highly inflated by a load of cheap wickets againt Zimbabwe batsman with poor techniques. Against England and the West Indies he has been utterly inaffective and unthreatening. Whereas Flintoff has consistently taken wickets against South Africa and AUSTRALIA. Flintoff has made batsmen like Lara, Ponting and Gilchrist look like rabbits.

Since the beginning of 2004, Kallis has managed just 28 wickets and a batting average of 80.

Flintoff has taken 91 wickets at 24 with a batting average of 45.

What that tells you is that Flintoff is a genuine allrounder, wheras Kallis is a batsman who bowls when required.

Edited on, September 30, 2005, 11:18 AM GMT, by Rob.

Edited on, September 30, 2005, 11:24 AM GMT, by Rob.

[Rob]

And in ODIs since the beginning of 2004:

Kallis:

Batting average of 45. Bowling average of 39 with 19 wickets.

Flintoff:

Batting average of 46, Bowling average of 24 with 30 wickets (and he missed a lot of games bowling through inury where he just played as a batsman).

Flintoff is an genuine allrounder, Kallis isn't. Get it? Now, please can this non issue be forgotten.

[Rob]

Looking ahead to Flintoff in the subcontinent.

I am confident he will do well with the ball. He did well last time with the ball in subcontinet when he was a fatty and overall below average player. His bowling has come on leaps and bounds since and I would expect him to have a good time against left handers such as Butt, Ganguly and Gambhir.

His batting will be interesting. That is the unproved element of his game in the subcontinet. I do think he has improved how he plays spin, he got better and better against Warne in the Ashes. However, the main challenge against Kumble and Harbhajan isn't always the turn, the spit and bounce off the pitch they get can be a handful and any England batsman to struggle won't be the first, and won't be the last.

Edited on, September 30, 2005, 11:42 AM GMT, by Rob.

[Huda]

flintoff isnt proven in the subcontinent yet, but after this tour if he gets more wickets i belive he will be a world class bowler, NEVER mind an allrounder that is a big but.


I fell giles will be under scrutiny again if kaneria, harbhajan who can spin the ball and kumble get lots of wicket. Its time england gave a chance to a younger spinner, giles couldnt even match the bowling performances of these bowlers.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Huda
flintoff isnt proven in the subcontinent yet, but after this tour if he gets more wickets i belive he will be a world class bowler, NEVER mind an allrounder that is a big but.


I fell giles will be under scrutiny again if kaneria, harbhajan who can spin the ball and kumble get lots of wicket. Its time england gave a chance to a younger spinner, giles couldnt even match the bowling performances of these bowlers.

We have some OK young ones like Mark Lawson, I just wish county captains would give them a chance instead of taking them out of the attack after one or two expensive overs

[Huda]

Originally posted by Rob

We have some OK young ones like Mark Lawson, I just wish county captains would give them a chance instead of taking them out of the attack after one or two expensive overs

i liked chris schoefield, but he really didnt have control of the ball i seem to remember, theres keedy who i like also but there arent enough spinners for the english selectors to choose IMO.

though england may not require spinners as they now have the capabilty of reverse swing, during this time they can nuture spinners, cus there will be a time when a spinner will be required like it was debate a few years ago.

[Xavier]

Don't you consider Shaid Afridi and Chris Gayle as all-rounder?

[bombayrocks]

freddie n e time!

[Rubayed]

Originally posted by Rob
This is a non issue. Flintoff without a shadow of a doubt because Kallis isn't even an allrounder anymore.

Would Kallis get into South Africa's team for his bowling alone? No.

Would Flintoff get into Englands team for his batting or bowling alone? Yes. Remember last year when ne just played as a batsman for England? And in SA when his batting was rubbish but he was Englands best bowler?

That is what makes a true allrounder. Someone who can get into a team for the batting or bowling discipline alone. Kallis does not fall into this category, Flintoff does.

End of story.

And as for Kallis bowling record in the last year, his average is highly inflated by a load of cheap wickets againt Zimbabwe batsman with poor techniques. Against England and the West Indies he has been utterly inaffective and unthreatening. Whereas Flintoff has consistently taken wickets against South Africa and AUSTRALIA. Flintoff has made batsmen like Lara, Ponting and Gilchrist look like rabbits.

Since the beginning of 2004, Kallis has managed just 28 wickets and a batting average of 80.

Flintoff has taken 91 wickets at 24 with a batting average of 45.

What that tells you is that Flintoff is a genuine allrounder, wheras Kallis is a batsman who bowls when required.

Edited on, September 30, 2005, 11:18 AM GMT, by Rob.

Edited on, September 30, 2005, 11:24 AM GMT, by Rob.

Yeah! perhaps Kallis wouldnt make it to S.A team only for his bolwing but what does it prove? If Flintoff was only a batsman or only a bowler,either way he would have had probably got dropped within his first few years since he didnt even average 20 with the bat and 50 with bowl in his first few years. So its not very important for an allrounder to able to be picked simply as a batsman or as a bowler to prove how useful he is for his team or to be called a genuine all rounder. Also dont forget that Kallis's recent test batting average is almost double than that of Flintoff's. Talking about Kallis getting cheap wickets, what is the batting and bowling average of Flintoff against India out of the 6 tests he played against them so far in his career? Its 12.50 with the bat and 49.63 with the bowl. If u take away the home matches then the batting average comes down to 5.20. Compare it with Kallis's average against India in India,,his batting and bowling average is 75.40 and 25.80. So in my opinion only because he had one great series against Australia doesnt mean that he can be considered as a better all rounder than Kallis. Look at their career stats and that will tell u the whole story. Kallis played almost double the test than Flintoff and still have overall a far better stats. The fact tha he has been doing it for a long time tells something about his all round ability. Flintoff is yet to prove himself in the subcontinent as a strong allround force. I will eagerly wait for his future Pakistan, India and Srilanka tours. End of the story!

Edited on, October 3, 2005, 6:28 AM GMT, by Rubayed.

[Rob]

Flintoffs overall career stats are meaningless in terms of judging how good he is. In his early spell in the England side he was overweight, inexperienced, didn't know enough about his game and had issues with himself mentally.

Since then, he has really developed as a player and his true talents have really shone through. Since he got recalled last to the England side in 2003 he has averaged about 45 with the bat and 24 with the ball. That is called being a true allrounder. And in one day cricket about the same, although a better average with the ball.

You asked who is the better allrounder overall in tests and ODI's, and at the present moment in time the answer to that is Flintoff because Kallis is no longer a genuine allrounder. Current performances are all that matters.

Only a fool would rate Flintoff on his overall stats.

I am backing Flintoff 100% to play a blinder on the subcontinent this time round. This is a completely different Flintoff to the one last time around.

As for his bowling record in India. I wouldn't look into it much. He bowled much better than the average suggested. (average of 31 in India). The economy is just 2 for him in India, and he has much more variety about his bowling these days whereas before he was just a wicket to wicket bowler.

Besides, what about Ricky Ponting, he averages 12 in India and he isn't a bad player is he?

Edited on, October 3, 2005, 8:41 AM GMT, by Rob.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally posted by Rubayed
Kallis' batting average is almost double than Flintoff in Test cricket in the last year or so...their career bowling average is also the same.

Funny how you put it. When you talk about batting you talk about last year stats and when you talk about bowling you talk about career?? I hope this is not because Kallis has deficiency in bowling in recent times. If he himself don't consider him as a bowler/all-rounder who are we? It is a non-issue really.

By the the time freddie reaches the years of kallis he may not have the total runs of kallis (centuries) but certainly he will cross 400 wickets.

[Sovik]

Shaun Pollock is a very good allrounder

[battye]

Kallis, definately.

Had Warne wanted to be a full allrounder (rather than a handy lower order batsman) and put his mind to it, I think he would be up amongst the top allrounders in the world too.

[Huda]

shaid afridi has the talent to becoime a world thereatening allrounder, but hit brain isnt to clever enough

[Huda]

end of the day u look at career stats, perfomances, flintoff will be a great allroudner if he keeps this consistency until hes past his 32 odd. ricky ponting averages 12 india, but he isnt a great like sachin, he is one player than can slay warne like no other player, another player kapil dev great all rounder, both those players have stats that are consistent throughout the world.

if filntoff gets this right and is consistent over the next few years, he will definetly be a wonderful all rounder, if not better than botham or greig

[Baundule]

Originally posted by Rob
And in ODIs since the beginning of 2004:

Kallis:

Batting average of 45. Bowling average of 39 with 19 wickets.

Flintoff:

Batting average of 46, Bowling average of 24 with 30 wickets (and he missed a lot of games bowling through inury where he just played as a batsman).

Flintoff is an genuine allrounder, Kallis isn't. Get it? Now, please can this non issue be forgotten.

Dear, you are wrong in your decision and it really shows some ignorance denying Kallis as an allrounder. The fact is, in recent times, Kallis was suffering from injury problems and that's why SA was using him only as a batsman.

It really needs some courage to ignore a great player with a batting avg. of 57 and taking 183 test wickets. Kallis still has a better Bowling avg than Flintoff and for batting, Freddie can never even dream of overtaking Kallis.

Edited on, October 7, 2005, 1:54 PM GMT, by Baundule.