Siddons targets 240 as team total

[Baundule]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
obviously chance won't win games against great 8 teams. but those wins were flukes in the sense that we can only pull them off once every 15 matches or so.

I never know that inconsistency = fluke. So, it is like "you have lost today, implies the other day your win was fluke, no matter how professionaly you played the other day."

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
blah made a good point, at this point in his tenure, DW had yet to win a match. in fact, our ODI team was routinley scoring sub 180 scores. of course that team had much less talent than our current bunch. but we will have been without aftab and sakib for 7 matches on the trot come end of asia cup.

bottom line is DW won just 1 game (against a strong zimbabwe side) in his first 18+ months. JS needs at least 12 months to accurately gauge his contribution.

See, development is a continuous process. A new coach does not mean that he has to start from the scratch. Rather, he has to re-use the existing development as much as possible.

Blindly giving him 1 year to do this and that and then judge - this is a problem with our way of thinking. Give the CTG 2 years unconditionally, give the JS 1 year unconditionally. Untill then, we can not talk about his procedures, even those are going towards the wrong direction!

I do not like to compare DW much with JS. There is no comparison at all. Whatmore got a team that were losing routinely against the likes of Kenya, Zimbabwe etc. When he left, that team had the confidence of beating the likes of India, Aus, SA. We had a very competitive series in WI. We were no longer overawed of the big names.

JS had to take that confidence of the team and then work on the inconsistency thing. It does not mean that he had to first destroy that positive.

And one more important thing, the overall players' quality does get gradually better in a developing cricket nation. The input of new players with better quality has nothing to do with the national team coach. Our U-19 team was fighting head-to-head against any other team and the likes of Nirala, Sakib, Tamim, Dollar are just a product of that process. JS has nothing to do with that. Well, I will give him all the credit if he can make Ashraful a consistent match winner. In his two matches that he played in the Kitply, JS made him consistent; but a match-loser.

[Blah]

Originally Posted by Eshen
You probably missed my previous post, we had 5 ODI wins against elite 8 teams in space of 29 ODIs, that's roughly 1 win in every 6 matches.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru/...m;view=innings

You may ask why I am disregarding the first year and half of Whatmore period, the answer is simple - although we had two-three decent players in the team back then, we had not found a good core of players until the end of 2004. In case of Siddons, he is handed a good core of players from the very beginning.

That's your assesment of a good player. But if they don't perform in games, where it matters, can you actually call them good players? Calling them "good players" is a relative term, it's only a fact if they actually perform.

Who are you calling a core of good players?
These people suck at playing cricket, that why we are loose games. Whats wrong with you?

They are not "good players" in any extend of imagination. More than 90% avg less than 30, Only one player gets called up for IPL; thats what they think about our good players. None of the players in the current corp will even get chance to play for any other team inthe world, if they begged their life for it. They don't even get a callup to play for english country premier league.

What good players?

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by Blah
That's your assesment of a good player. But if they don't perform in games, where it matters, can you actually call them good players? Calling them "good players" is a relative term, it's only a fact if they actually perform.

Who are you calling a core of good players?
These people suck at playing cricket, that why we are loose games. Whats wrong with you?

They are not "good players" in any extend of imagination. More than 90% avg less than 30, Only one player gets called up for IPL; thats what they think about our good players. None of the players in the current corp will even get chance to play for any other team inthe world, if they begged their life for it. They don't even get a callup to play for english country premier league.

What good players?

What these core players could have done in another team settings is a completely different proposition. It's not even the point of discussion here.

As Eshen pointed out, these core players in Bangladesh's setting have won 1 matches out of every 6 matches against top 8 teams and have won every other matches against Associates and Zimbabwe.

Siddons started with these bunch of players, and he is failing to get any results. Period.

[Blah]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Alright Blah, I have edited my post and quoted your whole post. It's hardly making any difference.

Before the qoute I said:

Because the players are not the same, the conditions are not the same. Resulting in a huge error margin, with garbage stats and numbers.

Which is essentially the same thing as you said:

And Blah, you think Bangladesh team in June 2003 and August 2007 are essentially the same team??

After that I said, which effectively negeting the point of the argument:

Not that it would make any sense, because the game numbers are too low; but you guys are too stubborn to understand that.

In simple words what I am trying to say is that, you can't take first seven months of siddons term and last two years (the best time) of whatmores term and say that siddons screwed up whatever gain whatmores did. Becauese thats bullsh-it.

When you try to compare results you have to have similar numbers and environment, you cant pull numbers from the air, and say siddons did better than whatmore, when the circumstances are differant. Not even counting the FACT that the game numbers are too low to make any judgement.

I can understand that if you don't like how siddons does his coaching, but please dont pull numbers out of air and try to make a point and justify your arguments.

Siddons pull numbers to show gradual increase in overall batting performance. He didn't claim to have won more match.

[Eshen]

Originally Posted by Blah
In simple words what I am trying to say is that, you can't take first seven months of siddons term and last two years (the best time) of whatmores term and say that siddons screwed up whatever gain whatmores did. Becauese thats bullsh-it.

When you try to compare results you have to have similar numbers and environment, you cant pull numbers from the air, and say siddons did better than whatmore, when the circumstances are differant. Not even counting the FACT that the game numbers are too low to make any judgement.

Fair argument, but it's Siddons who is pulling numbers out of air and claiming the team is showing progress comparing to previous periods. According to your logic, it's Siddons himself making him looking ridiculous.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Eshen
You probably missed my previous post, we had 5 ODI wins against elite 8 teams in space of 29 ODIs, that's roughly 1 win in every 6 matches.

http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru/...m;view=innings

You may ask why I am disregarding the first year and half of Whatmore period, the answer is simple - although we had two-three decent players in the team back then, we had not found a good core of players until the end of 2004. In case of Siddons, he is handed a good core of players from the very beginning.

touche. i didn't realize the ratio was that good. at any rate, i'd ideally like to see that become a 1 win in every 2 games ultimately. for now, we need to get it back to 1 in 6, and then hopefully 1 in 3 or 4.

[Blah]

Originally Posted by Miraz
What these core players could have done in another team settings is a completely different proposition. It's not even the point of discussion here.

As Eshen pointed out, these core players in Bangladesh's setting have won 1 matches out of every 6 matches against top 8 teams and have won every other matches against Associates and Zimbabwe.

Siddons started with these bunch of players, and he is failing to get any results. Period.

Okay, let me get along with you for a moment here. Since, you mention this core players so much. The stats that ehsan pointed out was from the last two years of whatmore term. To get along with your argument, I will try to predict the core players that you are reffering to who was with whatmore for the majority of the last two years of his tersm.

Let's see this will be interesting. We have:

Core players:

Rafique
Haba (you know mr. bashar)
Javed Omar
tapash bashiya (he played the games BD won against Aussie and India)
Nazmul hossain ( he was in the games BD won against aussie, india twice)
Rajin Saleh (he was inthe games against, india and srilanka)

I don't know if I should include rasel, since he didnt play most of the games under siddons terms.

So here you go. There are 11 possible players in a cricket team. And 7 of the wordl beating core players that you so brag about is largely absent in siddons team.

So I would like to know, what kind of reasoning that you will to justify the hole in your "core players" argument?

[Blah]

Originally Posted by Eshen
Fair argument, but it's Siddons who is pulling numbers out of air and claiming the team is showing progress comparing to previous periods. According to your logic, it's Siddons himself making him looking ridiculous.

Which I already said that his numbers are wrong/unreasonable. But that doesn't justify us claiming that his methods are not working, and it's too early to make the call.

[DotBall]

There lies, big lies and then there is statistics. One can spin things differently with statistics. As Siddon mentioned about 25% scores over 200 one fan had shown it was actually more than 39%; but that was over 2 years under Dev. Are we really at 25% over the life of Bangladesh cricket in ODIs? I don't have the stats but I do know that we are very inconsistent and repeat our mistakes over and over.
It takes are a very positive mindset to achieve a greater result but ignoring the building blocks would be very foolish. The way I read Siddon's approach is that he is trying to lay down the blocks. Playing out 50 overs in any given match should be one of our main goal in future matches. This will ensure that we will be competitve. This by no means implies that we will score 240 and will stop scoring any further. According to JS 240 should be our average capability and nothing stops us from scoring higher and winning any match. I am very excited about JS's approach and we will get better and will be able to sustain that. It's time to get of the roller coaster and travel on a steady incline track for some time.

[Foozy]

I want to talk just a little bit about the "fluke factor" here....

When siddons came in, yes we would produce 240+ scores "sometimes".... but it would often be the lower end including "the old mash" playing shots. The top order would almost ALWAYS crumble with ducks and below 10 scores. We would often be hoping for the rear end to save our rear.

But after siddons... a lot of the top order are becoming consistent, or atleast starting to...

Ok now some of you will jump on me saying that we still often hope for the rear to save our rear... but this is what siddons was saying that we need to put together our performances, which hasnt really happened yet.

Hey once the top order starts to stay in (regularly), they can start hitting blind strokes like before once they reach a suitable position. As it stands, they never even get to that position...

I hope he can get his mission under way soon...

[Foozy]

Originally Posted by DotBall
There lies, big lies and then there is statistics. One can spin things differently with statistics. As Siddon mentioned about 25% scores over 200 one fan had shown it was actually more than 39%; but that was over 2 years under Dev. Are we really at 25% over the life of Bangladesh cricket in ODIs? I don't have the stats but I do know that we are very inconsistent and repeat our mistakes over and over.
It takes are a very positive mindset to achieve a greater result but ignoring the building blocks would be very foolish. The way I read Siddon's approach is that he is trying to lay down the blocks. Playing out 50 overs in any given match should be one of our main goal in future matches. This will ensure that we will be competitve. This by no means implies that we will score 240 and will stop scoring any further. According to JS 240 should be our average capability and nothing stops us from scoring higher and winning any match. I am very excited about JS's approach and we will get better and will be able to sustain that. It's time to get of the roller coaster and travel on a steady incline track for some time.

I am feeling similarly...

[Gowza]

- The reason in the whatmore era BD beat minnows has a lot to do with the talent becaming better in BD, it wasn’t all whatmore's doing. and this better quality of talent is what is allowing siddons to implement the method he's currently implementing. siddons knows the players can play big shots, but he needs them to learn another side of the game to be a competitive team, the big shots are useful but at times you need to graft, grind and build. BD players need to learn to analyse/asses the game as it's played and react appropriately (sometimes this will mean hitting out and others it will mean hold down an end or it might mean play an aggressive innings but in a safe manner). not to say being proactive isn't a good thing either but that too needs to be calculated and implemented well, don't be proactive if your not going to back it 100% and don't do things that you don't think you can pull off.

- As i've said from the beginning real results from Siddons changes likely won’t show for about a year from when he started coaching the team. things should be starting to work from about now, but the full effect likely won't be seen for another few months.

- In ODIs under Siddons we already have 19 50+ scores in ODIs. 13 against top 8 teams, whatmore got what, 30-40 in 4 years against top 8 teams? siddons has 13 in 7 months, now that will probably be higher after the next 5 months (which will be a full year for siddons), if you just take the 50+ scores under siddons for the 7 months and x by 4 (whatmores no. of years coaching the BD team) it comes out to 52 which is already more than the 30-40 said BD got under whatmores 4 years. so if we wait 5 months, then multiply all the 50+ scores from ODIs it will be even higher than that 52, so siddons is on track to beat whatmores no. of 50+ scores against top 8 teams (he might even do it by the end of his 2 years as opposed to whatmores 4 years) if things keep going like they are). obviously there is no guarantee it will happen but so far the 50+ scores against top 8 teams are rolling in pretty nicely (by BD standards) under siddons.

- Siddons isn’t saying the players don’t have the talent, by saying they’re not good enough to compete atm he’s possibly trying to motivate them to improve and prove him wrong. at this point they have the talent but not the skills.

- Maybe siddons is talking to the bcb behind closed doors about the domestic infrastructure, someone earlier mentioned he should be doing this, fact is we don't know what he's saying to the bcb behind clsoed doors.

- It’s impossible to give a time frame for improvement as at least half of the effort if not more is up to the players, it depends on how quickly they catch on. i disagree that there have been no signs of improvement as the team has scored 2 of the top 3 highest ever ODI scores by BD and one of them is the highest ever against a top 8 side which is 280+, certainly an improvment on the previous record of 265. individual improvement (which has been occurring with the batsmen) will eventually lead to team improvement. If you get individual players consistent then eventually players will start performing on the same day. If they perform inconsistently like they were before siddons came along then it’s just a fluke that they perform on the same day, whereas the more consistent they are (siddons goal) the more likely more than one player will fire on the same day which is what you need to win matches consistently at this level.

- JS has been positive with this article, he was previously saying just aim for 200+, now he’s saying 240+. why would he say that unless he thinks the players are improving? the fact that he's now upping the target is something positive.

- The goal of Siddons is to change cricket mentality in the BD national team (which will hopefully lead to a change in the lower levels), even if the team doesn’t get back up to it’s previous level in Siddons 2 years it will be a good base to build on. Whereas what Siddons started with was a poor base to build on, if BD had a good base these sort of changes wouldn't be needed because they'd already be there.

- there's all this talk about the 50+ scores under siddons not really counting because the team isn't trying to win, that's completely bogus, has siddons specifically said that he's told the players not to try and win the matches they've played? as far as i'm aware he's just said wins don't matter atm, my interpretation of that is that he's just saying don't worry about winning or losing, i don't believe he means it in a way which is saying don't try to win. if the the latter is the case then i would be completely against that philosphy. the reason the 50+ scores under siddons haven't been match winning scores is because the players are learning to play a different way and it's going to take time for them to get use to it and get good at it. siddons is trying to teach them to play a better way, a way which will result in more consistency and more skills, the previous method worked on occassion but it was so risky (and narrow in the skills department) that high consistency was unlikely to ever come. siddons method has a much greater chance of bringing consistency and skills and consistency plus skills equals wins.

- whoever mentioned siddons lack of mentioning the bowling brings up a good point, JS is always talking about the batting and rarely the bowling which for me is a bit of a worry. but in regards to the bowling getting worse isn't there supposed to be a fast bowling coach? what are they doing to rectify the situation?

- personally i think the current lack of results are worthwhile if this works in the long run and i think this has a good chance of working in the long run. i guess if you think the method won't work in the long run then yeah you'd be upset, but the old method wasn't working either so continuing with that method is also pointless.

at the end of the day i think siddons is a better batting coach than head coach, i think having someone like whatmore as head coach with siddons as a batting coach would have brought improvement quicker than the way it's currently going.

[Foozy]

Originally Posted by Gowza
-
at the end of the day i think siddons is a better batting coach than head coach, i think having someone like whatmore as head coach with siddons as a batting coach would have brought improvement quicker than the way it's currently going.

now that my friend is somethin that i strongly agree with!

[Eshen]

Originally Posted by Gowza
- whoever mentioned siddons lack of mentioning the bowling brings up a good point, JS is always talking about the batting and rarely the bowling which for me is a bit of a worry. but in regards to the bowling getting worse isn't there supposed to be a fast bowling coach? what are they doing to rectify the situation?

Sarwar Imran has been appointed as the bowling coach for the Asia Cup. I would be happier if Ramanayake, who is currently working with academy pacers, has been given this job.

at the end of the day i think siddons is a better batting coach than head coach, i think having someone like whatmore as head coach with siddons as a batting coach would have brought improvement quicker than the way it's currently going.

That would be an excellent solution for our team. I think it won't be bad either to appoint Aminul Islam or Khaled Mahmud as the team manager (who will be the head of the team management, not just a manager who will take care logistical issues) and have Siddons and Ramanayake work under him as specialist coaches.

[Foozy]

Originally Posted by Eshen
Sarwar Imran has been appointed as the bowling coach for the Asia Cup. I would be happier if Ramanayake, who is currently working with academy pacers, has been given this job.

That would be an excellent solution for our team. I think it won't be bad either to appoint Aminul Islam or Khaled Mahmud as the team manager (who will be the head of the team management, not just a manager who will take care logistical issues) and have Siddons and Ramanayake work under him as specialist coaches.

Aminul Islam in my opinion would be a good choice, but the problem with such people is that its easy to bring them into the scene, but once they are in... wheather they are good or bad, it will be next to impossible to get them out....

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by cricket_dorshok
I am happy the way JS is working.
We used to play 'jodi laigga jai' type cricket. Now, JS is trying us to play the cricket the way it should be. With all due respect Whatmore couldn't change the mode of jodi laigga jai. Thats why we were very inconsistent. Almost everyone got to reach the conclusion that Ash is not coachable. Whatmore sometimes even stopped talking to him. But JS has proved that that he can really teach cricket (yes even to Ash).

Agreed...

The facts JS is presenting is true....we have to accept it.....and try to play proper cricket......develop the proper cricekting culture....proper way of approaching cricket......i dont mind loosing for 1 more year....if i find players of current side and more importantly whole of BD cricekters learns how to play proper/basic cricket and develops a culture of it all over BD. This will create a base of cricekting culture what every other top side have in them.

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by Miraz
It's not that JS is the first man who understood our problems, he is the first man who is highlighting the problems to cover-up his failures.

That is very impotant....closing your eyes after knowing the problem will not solve it...1st you have to accept that there lies a problem....identify it, accept it and work for it.

Beacuse of lack of cricekting knowledhe we are a very vulnarable side....If JS achieves to create a basic among the cricketers that will make a foundation for years to come. When our batsmen will approach correctly.....our side will look like scoring 200/2220+ all the time...like others top teams always look like....

When we look to other top teams....we have the percertion that - "if they can't score 200+, it's an accident".....do others have same perception on us?? JS is trying to create it......and it can only be created if we learn to play proper cricket.....so I dont put off JS as he is targetting 200+.....i will accept it if i find we have developed and learn to play proper cricket....in the long run only this can make us consistent and establish ourselves in cricket world.

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by BANFAN
1. What do you achieve by making the players believe that, they are not capable of competing against the top teams? Isn’t it damaging their confidence and desire to win? Is he not using it as a reason for not performing?

Reallity check is important.....like Ash needs to accept the fact that Aussie tail averages 20....so, if he wants to be called a suucessfull international batsman how hard he needs to work....how consistently he needs to bat. Guts is important here...if you are gutsy enough....true facts doesnt harm your confidence....if you are not gutsy....then international cricket is not for u.

This message goes to every other domestic cricekters as well who wants to play for BD....what to aim for...how hard needs to work in the nets....also message goes to officials.....how hard they need to work to produce/develop players to score avg. of 40+.....

This was necessary and this reallity check can only take us forward and what we need do is to accept it and work on it for better established future. otherwise we will be in same level for years to come.

[abdulmukit]

watch this match BD vs IND (1st ODI, MSBNS) if anyone is intrested in http://www.amadervideo.com/loadvideo.php?id=398

[Pundit]

I hardly think that Siddons goes to each player and brutally assaults there self-belief using Guantanamo tactics by hurling abuses like you no good piece of sheit!

I think we have a rabble rouser in this board who harbors a lot of personal hatred towards BD cricket and its beneficiaries, and uses old fashioned political type approaches to whip up a debate that is in general unprofessional.

I don't think even if we could afford it, we'd be having elections every 6 months to drive the government out of power. Sounds like a college student wanting to emulate mid-term like exams in real life.

[yaseer]

Originally Posted by Pundit
I hardly think that Siddons goes to each player and brutally assaults there self-belief using Guantanamo tactics by hurling abuses like you no good piece of sheit!

Thats the point....
What JS is trying is to play them proper cricekt....by establishing rules of not playing arrial shots in middle overs, preserving wickets for final overs, and more n more consistent...whats wrong in that??

Whats hurting everyone that he is speaking some true facts that we all keep inside our mind that...other top teams are still far away from us in terms of stats and playing the game in right way....How big a journey we need to make to level it up....JS is aiming high and trying to go for that with some targets in mind in every tour.....I find this the way to go....why dont we support and lets see how it goes.....if it works out.....we will have e huge step forward and this step forward will be permanent......Lets see and hope for the best.

[nsd3]

Even if you try to compare apple with apple (statistically speaking) you'll see there hasn't been anything horribly wrong (as some cry babies are suggesting). BD has played 13 ODIs with stronger teams under JS so far. If you consider the last 13 ODIs under DW (as the team must have been matured after 4 years with DW before JS joined) against stronger teams (that excludes Ireland, Kenya, Zim etc.) you'll see the following:

		Avg Score	Runs per Over
Last 13 matches with DW		179	4.06
ALL 13 matches with JS		183	4.11

Does it show any deterioration in performance? Runs per Over is also suggesting that curbing shots gave us higher run rate under JS!! So "Fatch Fatch" bon koren. Have patience.

Source:
13 ODIs with DW:

ODI # 2366

ODI # 2367

ODI # 2423

ODI # 2426

ODI # 2538

ODI # 2546

ODI # 2559

ODI # 2561

ODI # 2564

ODI # 2568

ODI # 2576

ODI # 2582

ODI # 2583

13 ODIs with JS:

ODI # 2658

ODI # 2659

ODI # 2660

ODI # 2690

ODI # 2691

ODI # 2692

ODI # 2696

ODI # 2698

ODI # 2700

ODI # 2702

ODI # 2703

ODI # 2704

ODI # 2706

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Miraz
BANFAN, that's a top post.

Couldn't agree more.

Thanks Miraz also for the Data you posted for team & individuals, Amazing to see, how can a pro coach start manipulating data to his favour just after 6 months & arr 15 odd matches !

We all I'm sure would love to be in a situation, where we would be proudly praising the coach & our player, even merely for sincere efforts. But unfortunately the situation looks grim at the moment. It is of course possible to turn things around from any situation. One good win could wash away all the damage done so far. Hope they can do it in Asia cup.

Thanks Eshen for the stats, the WM stats really looks good; 1 win in every 6 matches against the big 8s ! That's impressive. Anything like 1 in 4/5 would be a very good progress. But unfortunately team does not look to have the confidence to play for winning yet. Some extracts of the interview of the coach and captain are here:

Ash:

"Definitely we want to win against UAE and better our Asia Cup records," Ashraful said. "If we don't go for the win, we won't be in the second round but I am sure we will make it."

Ashraful said he will play aggressive cricket if there was a need to do that. "I have played to the situation in the tri-series [Kitply Cup] too and I will do the same in Pakistan from where I bat.

JS:

Siddons said he expected his team to play really well in the second round. "I have seen some great signs in the batsmen on individual basis. But as far as putting all of that together, the players haven't done it yet. The bowlers must deliver better performances because that is one problem

"Whether we will win after the first round I am not sure, But I am looking forward to putting our best game together as far as batting is concerned and a much better show in bowling."

JS infact seems to know about the problem of bowling, but looks like doesn't have a fix for it.

Cricinfo

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by nsd3

Even if you try to compare apple with apple (statistically speaking) you'll see there hasn't been anything horribly wrong (as some cry babies are suggesting). BD has played 13 ODIs with stronger teams under JS so far. If you consider the last 13 ODIs under DW (as the team must have been matured after 4 years with DW before JS joined) against stronger teams (that excludes Ireland, Kenya, Zim etc.) you'll see the following:

Does it show any deterioration in performance? Runs per Over is also suggesting that curbing shots gave us higher run rate under JS!! So "Fatch Fatch" bon koren. Have patience.

What is the win-loss equation in those 13?
Equation of surrender & look for stats- Fight and loose? 5-0 or 13-0?

And there are many things yet that can't be seen in the score cards. The deterioration of bowling and fielding and all those hanging faces.

But it's a good addition, JS needs many such supports to speak for him. But the loosing streak is only increasing. Results speak for itself. Hope he can bring us the desired results and becomes our national hero some day.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by yaseer
Reallity check is important.....like Ash needs to accept the fact that Aussie tail averages 20....so, if he wants to be called a suucessfull international batsman how hard he needs to work....how consistently he needs to bat. Guts is important here...if you are gutsy enough....true facts doesnt harm your confidence....if you are not gutsy....then international cricket is not for u.

This message goes to every other domestic cricekters as well who wants to play for BD....what to aim for...how hard needs to work in the nets....also message goes to officials.....how hard they need to work to produce/develop players to score avg. of 40+.....

This was necessary and this reallity check can only take us forward and what we need do is to accept it and work on it for better established future. otherwise we will be in same level for years to come.

Reality check is important, but beating that drum to defend his role as a coach is Obnoxious. Every person has weaknesses and strengths.

Would you (Any One) like your family members just telling arround that you are an as'ole, always drinking and womenizing and etc etc? That needs to be solved as silently as possible. Publicity of your short commings are not the solution. IMO