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September 8, 2009, 09:20 PM
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The Muslim Goethe
Was Goethe a Muslim?
by Shaykh 'Abdalqadir Al-Murabit, Authorized by the Amir of the Muslim Community in Weimar, Hajj Abu Bakr Rieger, Weimar, 19th December 1995
Goethe said that there is "much nonsense in the doctrines of the [christian] church."(Conversations with Eckermann, 11.3.1832) In his "Divan" Goethe stresses the value of the precious present moment rather than having the Christian attitude of only waiting for the next life and therefore, disgracing what God gives man in every moment of his life.
Goethe refuses the christian view of Jesus and confirms the unity of Allah in a poem of his "Divan":
"Jesus felt pure and calmly thoughtOnly the One God;Who made himself to be a godOffends his holy will.And thus the right(ness) has to shineWhat Mahomet also achieved;Only by the term of the OneHe mastered the whole world""Jesus f|hlte rein und dachteNur den Einen Gott im Stillen;Wer ihn selbst zum Gotte machteKrdnkte seinen heil'gen Willen.Und so mu_ das Rechte scheinenWas auch Mahomet gelungen;Nur durch den Begriff des EinenHat er alle Welt bezwungen." (WA I, 6, 288 ff)Besides Jesus and Muhammad - may Allah bless him and give him peace! - in the following verses Goethe also names Abraham, Moses and David as the representatives of the Oneness of God. It is a known fact that Goethe felt a strong dislike for the symbol of the cross. He wrote:
"And now you come with a sign ... which among all others I mostly dislike.All this modern nonsenseYou are going to bring me to Schiras!Should I, in all its stiffness,Sing of two crossed wooden pieces?""Und nun kommst du, hast ein ZeichenDran gehdngt, das unter allen ...Mir am schlechtesten will gefallenDiese ganze moderne NarrheitMagst du mir nach Schiras bringen!Soll ich wohl, in seiner Starrheit,Hvlzchen quer auf Hvlzchen singen?..."Und sogar noch stdrker: "Mir willst du zum Gotte machenSolch ein Jammerbild am Holze!"Also in Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre Goethe quite frankly wrote that it is a "cursed insolence ... to play with secrets that are hidden in the divine depth of suffering" One should rather "cover it with a veil".
Finally, in the poem of the Seven Sleepers of his "Divan" Goethe calls Jesus a prophet: "Ephesus for many years/ Honours the teaching of the Prophet Jesus. (Peace be upon the good one!)" (WA I, 6, 269) Sufism / Practice of Dhikr
Goethe is fascinated by Saadi's metaphor of the "fly in love" flying into the light where it dies as the image for the Sufi. See here especially the poem of the "Divan" about the butterfly flying into the light "Blissful yearning / Selige Sehnsucht" whose earlier titles were "Sacrifice of the self / Selbstopfer" and "Perfection / Vollendung". In the chapter about Rumi, Goethe acknowledges the invocation of Allah and the blessing of it: "Already the so-called mahometan rosary [prayer-beeds] by which the name Allah is glorified with ninety-nine qualities is such a praise litany. Affirming and negating qualities indicate the inconceivable Being [Wesen]; the worshipper is amazed, submits and calms down." (WA I, 7, 59) Goethe and Islam
As a young man Goethe wanted to study oriental studies - but his father finally wanted him to study law; he always admired the first travellers to Arabia (Michaelis, Niebuhr), he was fascinated by it and read everything they published about their trips. In 1814/15 at the time of his "Divan" Goethe trained himself with the professors for oriental studies Paulus, Lorsbach and Kosegarten (Jena) in reading and writing Arabic. After looking at his Arabic manuscripts and having known about the Qur'an, Goethe felt a great yearning to learn Arabic. He copied short Arabic Du'as by himself and wrote: "In no other language spirit, word and letter are embodied in such a primal way." (Letter to Schlosser, 23.1.1815, WA IV, 25, 165)
At the age of 70 Goethe writes (Notes and Essays to the Divan, WA I, 17, 153) that he intends "to celebrate respectfully that night when the Prophet was given the Koran completely from above" He also wrote: "No one may wonder about the great efficiency of the Book. That is why it has been declared as uncreated by real admirers" and added to it: "This book will eternally remain highly efficacious/effective" (WA I, 7, 35/36)
Still today we have the handwritten manuscripts of his first intensive Qur'an-studies of 1771/1772 and the later ones in the Goethe and Schiller-Archive in Weimar. Goethe read the German translation of Qur'an by J. v. Hammer (possibly as well from the more prosaic English translation of G. Sale) out loud in front of members of the Duke's family in Weimar and their guests. Being witnesses Schiller and his wife reported about the reading. (Schiller's letter to Knebel, 22.2.1815) Goethe always felt the shortcomings of all the translations (Latin, English, German and French) and was constantly looking for new translations. In his "Divan" Goethe says:
"Whether the Koran is of eternity? I don't question that!... That it is the book of books I believe out of the muslim's duty." "Ob der Koran von Ewigkeit sei? Darnach frag' ich nicht ! ... Da_ er das Buch der B|cher sei Glaub' ich aus Mosleminen- Pflicht"(WA I, 6, 203)He studied Arabic handbooks, grammars, travel-books, poetry, anthologies, books on the sira of the Prophet Muhammad - may Allah bless him and give him peace! - and had a widespread exchange with oriental scholars about these matters. Goethe liked the German translation of Hafis' "Diwan" by Hammer (May 1814) and studied the different translations of Qur'an of his time. All of this inspired him to write his own "West-stlicher Divan" and of course many poems of the "Divan" are clearly inspired by and relate to different Ayats of Qur'an (see Mommsen, p. 269-274).
Goethe bought original Arabic manuscripts of Rumi, Dschami, Hafis, Saadi, Attar, Qur'an-Tafsir, Du'as, an Arabic-Turkish dictionary, texts on matters like the freeing of slaves, buying and selling, interest, usury and Arabian scripts from Sultan Selim.
Goethe considered it not to be a mere accident but rather as meaningful incidents, in fact as part of his decree and signs of Allah, when in Autumn 1813 he was brought an old Arabic handwritten manuscript from Spain by a German soldier coming from Spain which contained the last Surat An-Nas (114). Later Goethe tried to copy it himself with the help of the professors in Jena who had helped him in finding out the manuscript's content in January 1814 he visited a prayer of Bashkir Muslims from the Russian army of Zar Alexander in the protestant gymnasium of Weimar.
See the letter to Trebra, 5.1.1814 (WA IV, 24, 91) where he says: "Speaking of prophecies, I have to tell you that there are things happening these days, which they would not have allowed a prophet to say. Who would have been allowed some years ago to say that there would be held a mahommedan divine service and the Suras of Koran would be murmured in the auditorium of our protestant gymnasium and yet it happened and we attended the Bashkir service, saw their Mulla and welcomed their Prince in the theatre. Out of special favour I was presented with a bow and arrows which for eternal memory I will hang above my chimney as soon as God has decreed a lucky return for them."
In a letter to his son August from the 17.1.1814 (WA IV, 24, 110) he adds: "Several religious ladies of us have asked for the translation of the Coran from the library." Goethe's positive attitude towards Islam goes far beyond anyone in Germany before: He published on 24.2.1816: "The poet [Goethe]... does not refuse the suspicion that he himself is a Muslim." (WA I, 41, 86) In another poem of the "Divan" Goethe says:
"Stupid that everyone in his caseIs praising his particular opinion!If Islam means submission to God,We all live and die in Islam.""Ndrrisch, da_ jeder in seinem Falle Seine besondere Meinung preist! Wenn Islam Gott ergeben hei_t, In Islam leben und sterben wir alle." (WA I, 6, 128)Apart from Goethe's - the poet's - fascination for the language of Qur'an, its beauty and sublimeness, he was mostly attracted by its religious and philosophical meaning: the unity of God, the conviction that God manifests in nature/creation is one of the major themes in Goethe's work. During his first intensive Qur'an-studies Goethe copied and partly put right the text of the first direct translation of the Qur'an from Arabic into German in 1771/1772.
Goethe wrote down different Ayats of Qur'an which teach man how he should see nature in all its phenomena as signs of divine laws. The multiplicity of the phenomena indicates the One God. The relation towards nature as the Qur'an presents it connected with the teaching of the kindness and oneness of God - as Goethe writes it down from the Ayats of Sura No. 2 - became the main pillars on which Goethe's sympathy and affinity towards Islam was based. Goethe said we should realize "God's greatness in the small" - "Gottes Gr'e im Kleinen" and refers to the Ayat of Surat Al-Baqara, vers 25 where the metaphor of the fly is given.
Goethe was very impressed about the fact that Allah speaks to mankind by prophets and thus he confirmed the prophet Muhammad - may Allah bless him and give him peace!: In 1819 Goethe writes (referring to Sura "Ibrahim", Ayat 4) "It is true, what God says in the Qur'an: We did not send a prophet to a people but in their language." (Letter to A.O. Blumenthal, 28.5.1819, WA IV, 31, 160) Referring to the same Ayat Goethe repeats in a letter to Carlyle: "The Koran says: God has given each people a prophet in its own language." (20.7.1827, WA IV, 42, 270) It appears again in 1827 in an essay of Goethe in: German Romance. Vol. IV. Edinburgh 1827 (WA I, 41, 307)
Goethe affirmed the rejection of the unbelievers' challenge to the prophet Muhammad - may Allah bless him and give him peace! - to show them miracles where he says: "Wonders I can not do said the Prophet, / The greatest miracle is that I am." (Paralipomenon III, 14 of the Divan, WA I, 6, 476)
In "Mahomet" Goethe wrote the famous song of praise "Mahomets Gesang". The meaning of the prophet is put into the metaphor of the stream, starting from the smallest beginning and growing to be an immense spiritual power, expanding, unfolding, and gloriously ending in the ocean, the symbol for divinity. He especially describes the religious genius in carrying the other people with him like the stream does with small brooks and rivers. On a handwritten manuscript of the Paralipomena III, 31 of the "Divan" Goethe writes on the 27.1.1816:
"Head of created beings / Muhammed". (WA I, 6, 482)
Furthermore that true religion is shown by good action. Here Goethe especially liked the action of giving Sadaqa, giving to the needy. In several poems of the Divan, "Buch der Sprche" Goethe speaks about "the pleasure of giving" / "die Wonne des Gebens" / "See it rightly and you will always give" - "Schau es recht, und du wirst immer geben" (WA I, 6, 70) which already in this life is full of blessings.
Goethe is also well known for his rejection of the concept of chance/accident: "What people do not and can not realize in their undertakings and what rules most obviously at its best where their greatness should shine - the chance as they call it later - exactly this is God, who here directly enters and glorifies Himself by the most trifling." (conversation with Riemer, November 1807)
The increasingly firm belief in the decree of God (conversation with chancellor Mller, 12.8.1827, WA I, 42, 212, WA I, 32, 57) and the verse of a Divan-poem: "If Allah had determined me to be a worm;/ He would have created me as a worm." (WA I, 6, 113) and more "they [-examples of metaphors used in the Divan -] represent the wonderful guidance and providence coming out of the unexplorable, inconceivable decree of God; they teach and confirm the true Islam, the absolute submission to the will of God, the conviction, that no one may avoid his once assigned destiny." (WA I, 7, 151ff) resulted in his personal attitude of submission under the will of God, i.e. Goethe saw it as an order to accept it thankfully and not to rebel against it. See famous examples for this in his "Egmont", "Dichtung und Wahrheit", "Urworte Orphisch" and "Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre" etc.
A deeply moving example from his own life was his reaction to the accident of his coach when he started his third journey to Marianne von Willemer (July 1816), who he intended to marry after Christiane had died about which he felt extremly unhappy. Goethe took this as a clear warning not to pursue his wish anymore and completely refrained from his original intention. After that Goethe wrote: "And thus we have to remain inside Islam, (that means: in complete submission to the will of God)..." (WA IV, 27, 123) He said: "I cannot tell you more than this that also here I try to remain in Islam." (Letter to Zelter, 20.9.1820, WA IV, 33, 240)
When in 1831 the cholera appeared and killed many people he consoled a friend: "Here no one can counsil the other; each one has to decide on his own. We all live in Islam, whatever form we choose to encourage ourselves." (Letter to Adele Schopenhauer, 19.9.1831, WA IV, 49, 87)
In December 1820 Goethe wrote thanks for the gift of a book of aphorisms of his friend Willemer and says: "It fits ... with every religious-reasonable view and is an Islam to which we all have to confess sooner or later." (WA IV, 34, 50)
As a participant in the war of 1792 against France Goethe said that this belief in the decree of God has its purest expression in Islam: "The religion of Mohammed gives the best proof of this." (WA I, 33, 123)
According to Eckermann's conversations with Goethe (11.4.1827) the latter said to the first speaking about the education of the muslims by constantly seeing opposites in existence, therefore meeting doubt, close examination of a matter and thus finally arriving at certainty: "That philosophical system of the mohammedan people is an excellent measure which one can apply to oneself as well as to others in order to know on which station of spiritual virtue we actually are."
About the unity of Allah Goethe said: "The belief in the one God has always the effect to elevate the spirit because it indicates for man the unity within his own self." (Noten und Abhandlungen zum West-stlichen Divan, chapter Mahmud von Gasna, WA I, 7, 42)
Goethe tells about the difference between a prophet and a poet and the confirmation of Muhammad - may Allah bless him and give him peace! - as a prophet: "He is a prophet and not a poet and therefore his Koran is to be seen as a divine law and not as a book of a human being, made for education or entertainment." (Noten und Abhandlungen zum West-stlichen Divan, WA I, 7, 32)
Conclusion
After examining the material evidence above and recognising its corroborative proofs in the writing of his close friends, Thomas Carlyle and Schiller it is possible to come to a clear conclusion without ambiguity or doubt.
Everything contained in his scientific writings, especially "Zur Morphologie" stands as a lifetime's propagation of the view that the universe is the creation of a Divine Being and that the Creator has no connected aspect to His creation.
While he lived his life in a non-Muslim country, he wholeheartedly adopted and declared commitment to the double Shahada and confirmed that there can be no god but Allah, the One, and that His messenger, and seal of the messengers was Muhammad, may Allah bless him and give him peace.
Uninstructed in Salat, Zakat, Sawm and Hajj, he nevertheless proudly and with deep emotion took the rare opportunity to attend the Juma'a. In all this it is clear that he saw Islam as his own Deen.
From the several renowned and confirmed Hadith in Muslim, Bukhari and the Sunnan collections it is known that confirmation of Allah and His messenger was itself the indisputable door of Islam, and the key to Jannah.
Thus it can be clearly accepted that Europe's greatest poet, and the glory of the German language and intellectual life is also the first of the Muslims in modern Europe, re-awakening in the hearts of people desire for knowledge of God and His messenger, a knowledge that had lain dormant since darkness had descended on Islamic Spain. In the light of his dazzling confirmation of the prophet, may Allah bless him and give him peace, he should be known among the muslims as Muhammad Johann Wolfgang Goethe.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/con...ert_goethe.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot0eC0utpF0
Its about time we pay homage to this great man! May Allah grant him Jannah!
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September 8, 2009, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
Its about time we pay homage to this great man! May Allah grant him Jannah!
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Interesting thread. But I didn't have to wait for him to find his religious affiliation to appreciate the genius of this Renaissance man, womanizer with off-the-charts IQ.
Last edited by Zeeshan; September 8, 2009 at 10:00 PM..
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September 8, 2009, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
Interesting thread. But I didn't have to wait for him to find his religious affiliation to appreciate the genius of this Renaissance man, womanizer with off-the-charts IQ.
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Well, it takes a genius to know one. Good for you!
What next...he had syphilis- eh? What do you know about Napoleon Boneparte- eh?
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September 8, 2009, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
What next...he had syphilis- eh? What do you know about Napoleon Boneparte- eh?
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Was he Muslim too?
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September 8, 2009, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunaid
Was he Muslim too?
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Yes, Sir!
Hope you wont remind me he, too, had syphilis
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September 8, 2009, 09:56 PM
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BanCricFan I have to take your references with grain of salt. Using Islamic sources as credible citation reminds me of the circular logic. However, in wikipedia (which is of course by no means the last authority, but at least there one can expect to have an unbiased general view) it is stated:
Quote:
…I have found no confession of faith to which I could ally myself without reservation. Now in my old age, however, I have learned of a sect, the Hypsistarians, who, hemmed in between heathens, Jews and Christians, declared that they would treasure, admire, and honour the best, the most perfect that might come to their knowledge, and in as much as it must have a close connection to the Godhead, pay it reverence. A joyous light thus beamed at me suddenly out of a dark age, for I had the feeling that all my life I had been aspiring to qualify as a Hypsistarian. That, however, is no small task, for how does one, in the limitations of one's individuality, come to know what is most excellent?
– from a letter to Sulpiz Boisserée dated 22 March 1831[24]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goethe#cite_note-23
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As for the him being a womanizer, well I am not sure if it was Asimov who said it or if I read it at the back of his bio, but I did read it somewhere and I will try to find a credible source. Meanwhile, check out his writings on eroticism under the same wikipedia article.
But to me attributing Islam as his religion strikes me starkly as a part of revisionist agenda in the same veins of the "blackwash" articles abundant online where one tries to posit that virtually everyone famous was black taking Beethoven for instance. [Edit: http://suzar.com/BOTW/1BOTW-toc.html]
Last edited by Zeeshan; September 8, 2009 at 10:02 PM..
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September 8, 2009, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
Meanwhile, check out his writings on eroticism under the same wikipedia article.
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What gave you the impression that I wasnt aware of his writings on eroticism? You think Kama Sutra only been discovered by this generation! While at it, do you know who wrote the Perfumed Garden which was supposed to be a commentary of KS?
You will find many of the medieval muslim scholars- and quite a few of them religious scholars (Ulama) - wrote on eroticism widely. Infact, muslim libraries/bookshops were first to stock them under its classification. So, its not so surprising that someone like Goethe will delve into it! Its not a news, dear fella!
Btw, take a trip to Germany...mingle with the literary circles there...You will come to know a great deal about Goethe and others...which your wiki wouldnt quite deliver.
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September 8, 2009, 10:34 PM
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Well, I don't know the authenticity of this info ... but my question:
So what if Goethe was a Muslim? Does it make him any greater than he already was? Does this make Islam any greater or worse?
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September 8, 2009, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
BanCricFan I have to take your references with grain of salt. Using Islamic sources as credible citation reminds me of the circular logic.
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And why any "Islamic sources" cannot be a credible citation? Where is the logic to it? Investigate the source..see if it backs itself up, I say. Wouldn't you agree? Anyway, this thread isnt for convincing any non-muslims or doubters. It is merely for the benefits of the believers so that come to know about a great fellow muslim and a brother in Islam. Whether Goethe was REALLY REALLY a muslim. Its not our business...its with the Almighty. We just go with the circumstantial evidence and happy to be inclusive...the same principle should apply to someone if wasnt as famous as Goethe
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September 8, 2009, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
Well, I don't know the authenticity of this info ... but my question:
So what if Goethe was a Muslim? Does it make him any greater than he already was? Does this make Islam any greater or worse?
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And what is wrong with sharing this news? Why this should be related to Goethes greatness or Islams worth? I see very little logic here.
Out of all these things you could have asked...you ask this!
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September 9, 2009, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanCricFan
And what is wrong with sharing this news? Why this should be related to Goethes greatness or Islams worth? I see very little logic here.
Out of all these things you could have asked...you ask this!
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Clearly, Goethe being a Muslim has SOME sort of impact on you, otherwise you wouldn't have shared it. The title is "Was Goethe a Muslim?" ... and a very reasonable follow-up would be "What if he was?" ... wouldn't you say so? In your previous reply to ZeeshanM's post, you said the news is for the "benefit of the believers." My question is basically asking you to tell us WHAT benefits you are talking about ... does it benefit Goethe's already venerated image? Does it help believers BELIEVE more? This reminds me of the whole "Neil Armstrong is a Muslim!" hype ... I am not saying what you say about Goethe is false (though it may be - I wouldn't know).
Logic ekdom angul diye dhorai dite hoile logic ar logic thaklona ... or maybe shob logic-er bhandar apnar kache ... I have "little logic" ... ZeeshanM bhai has "little logic" ... we should go cry somewhere.
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September 9, 2009, 12:49 AM
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Dear electrequiem,
People who love Islam with all their hearts REJOICE whenever the belief is supported through means of popular historical figures, pop culture or scientific proof. I hope you understand!!
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September 9, 2009, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
Dear electrequiem,
People who love Islam with all their hearts REJOICE whenever the belief is supported through means of popular historical figures, pop culture or scientific proof. I hope you understand!!
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I understand; yet at the same time I dont see any point in rejoicing and forwarding chain emails claiming Michael Jackson. princess Diana, Neil Armstrong etc were all Muslims when there is little credible evidence to suggest so.
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September 9, 2009, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
Clearly, Goethe being a Muslim has SOME sort of impact on you, otherwise you wouldn't have shared it. The title is "Was Goethe a Muslim?" ... and a very reasonable follow-up would be "What if he was?" ... wouldn't you say so? In your previous reply to ZeeshanM's post, you said the news is for the "benefit of the believers." My question is basically asking you to tell us WHAT benefits you are talking about ... does it benefit Goethe's already venerated image? Does it help believers BELIEVE more? This reminds me of the whole "Neil Armstrong is a Muslim!" hype ... I am not saying what you say about Goethe is false (though it may be - I wouldn't know).
Logic ekdom angul diye dhorai dite hoile logic ar logic thaklona ... or maybe shob logic-er bhandar apnar kache ... I have "little logic" ... ZeeshanM bhai has "little logic" ... we should go cry somewhere.
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Dont see any intelligence in this post, either. Stop indulging yourself in pety arguments and read the article first. Normal reaction from any muslim, I know, would have been..."woah! thats great news...alhamdulillah! A genius such a Goethe wrote a Dewan in the honour of our Prophet...how many muslims greats writes anything about our Prophet nowadays" or along these lines!
Instead of doubting the authenticity of the source or comparing it with Niel, Diana or Michaels saga read the article again and highlight the area you have doubt or problems with. An intelligent man will treat every case on its merit and not like some of our stupid cricketers playing a predetermined pull shot to a ball which is full, on the off stump and swinging away. His middle stump gets uprooted and he just stands there in a daze and wonder what has just happened!
Yes, a great man like Goethe's conversion to Islam would have a serious impact on me or anyone with any Islamic zeal. Read Rifats post again. I dont know how well you're aquainted with the early Islamic history. But try to draw an analogy with the incident when the Prophet of Allah (S) supplicated that Islam is strengthened by the conversion of one of the two Umars.
I find heart in the story of great DEAD muslims than some of the good for nothing, dumb -who cant see beyond the obvious- kind of "LIVING" muslims. Some dead are more alive than the deaf, dumb and blind ones...if you know what I mean.
Hope you will comeback with a good retort. Any post which is devoid of intelligence, commonsense, logic and proper decorum will not be answered from now on. This month isnt for petty argumentations.
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September 9, 2009, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
I understand; yet at the same time I dont see any point in rejoicing and forwarding chain emails claiming Michael Jackson. princess Diana, Neil Armstrong etc were all Muslims when there is little credible evidence to suggest so.
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Read the above post.
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September 9, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Interesting post BCF. I had no idea about what you posted. Learn something new everyday.
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September 9, 2009, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamer
Interesting post BCF. I had no idea about what you posted. Learn something new everyday.
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Sign of a great man, Beamer, to be open to learn something new everyday!
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September 9, 2009, 01:42 PM
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Well..there is nothing GREAT about me . Just accepting my mortal limitations on many matters in life, education, religion etc. But, thanks for the compliments..
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September 9, 2009, 02:18 PM
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BCF rocks. Carry on.
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﴾اَلَاۤ اِنَّ اَوۡلِيَآءَ اللّٰهِ لَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَيۡهِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ يَحۡزَنُوۡنَ ۖ ۚ ﴿۶۲
"Listen, the friends of Allah shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve" (Yunus: 62)
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September 9, 2009, 02:37 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: October 16, 2006
Location: Doha, Qatar
Favorite Player: Mash,Shakib,Tamim
Posts: 7,046
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I will read it later for sure. 4th week into the penultimate semester, porar chape moira jaitesi
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September 9, 2009, 03:12 PM
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Cricket Legend
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Join Date: June 21, 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Favorite Player: The venerated one on BC.
Posts: 4,215
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BanCricFan,
It takes intelligence to see intelligence.
I saw it in your post, which is why I had some genuine questions.
You didn't see it in mine.
I am done for. Online arguments are about as useless as a snooze button on a smoke alarm.
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"Eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love." - Bill Hicks
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September 9, 2009, 03:22 PM
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Cricket Guru
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Join Date: April 29, 2005
Favorite Player: Taskin, Rubel, Abul
Posts: 10,731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
...I saw it in your post, which is why I had some genuine questions.
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Perhaps, you could have phrased it a bit better...it sounded rather dismissive, reactionary and condescending to an extant.
But no hard feelings on my behalf. And I appreciate this post of yours.
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September 9, 2009, 04:47 PM
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Cricket Legend
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Join Date: June 12, 2007
Location: Yonder
Favorite Player: Me
Posts: 2,160
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goethe was sympathetic to aspects of sufi philosophy. the very same sufis might not be accepted as 'true' muslims by many of the mullahs. goethe is still very important though for reasons that i expect very few in this group to know anything about.
goethe sparked off a fervour to find out more about the unknown arab world within the neareast. this is how arabian history secured its important place in german scholarship. goethe inadvertently influenced the likes of wellhausen and goldziher, the preeminent german scholars of islam and pre-islamic arabia around the late 19th and very early 20th centuries. their works on pre-islamic arabia are still considered valid starting points for the ethnographic study of arabia before the arrival of islam. without these two, the world that islam came into would be entirely limited to the hagiographic nature of 8th and 9th century muslim commentators and what the mullahs utter. the likes of edward said, irfan shahid and frank trombley have criticized the unfair influence of wellhausen, goldziher and what they termed the 20th century orientalists like montgommery watt, h a r gibb to name a few, but realistically, without that early interest in pre-islamic arabia, we could not have possibly secured the finance for later ethnographic and archeological research on pre-islamic arabia, especially the study of safaitic, lihayanite and thamudic graffitti, that reveal much about everyday life around the time when the prophet was born.
'muslim' interest in scholarship is almost entirely limited to arabic works and islamic theology. even the jordanian and syrian universities concentrate more on roman and parthian aspects of their history rather than the lives of everyday bedouins who came came out of the desert to conquer two empires. even today, funding is almost impossible to obtain from middle eastern bodies for research on pre-islamic arabia between the period of 2nd to early 6th centuries. what research funding is there comes almost entirely from the western universities. it appears as if the muslim world has no interest in verifying the validity of the pre-islamic world as presented by ibn-ishaq in his life of the prophet. yet goethe, all those years ago presented the islamic world in such a pleasant light that eminent scholars of the next generation started to take a real interest in the achievements of that lost world. so we should be more than thankful to goethe.
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'immerse your soul in love' - thom yorke
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September 9, 2009, 05:22 PM
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Cricket Sage
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Join Date: September 16, 2004
Posts: 18,718
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Obama naki ratee lukayee lukayee Namaj porey... Kotha ta ki shotti?
Shathey naki chief-of-staff ke neyee ashtee ashtey azan dey? COS naki dhormo change korbey preti shegrohee?
Thukku... wrong thread.
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"Make Bangladesh Cricket Great Again"
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September 11, 2009, 11:58 AM
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Cricket Guru
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Join Date: March 7, 2007
Location: elsewhere
Favorite Player: ZAR
Posts: 9,896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazal
obama naki ratee lukayee lukayee namaj porey... Kotha ta ki shotti?
Shathey naki chief-of-staff ke neyee ashtee ashtey azan dey? Cos naki dhormo change korbey preti shegrohee?
Thukku... Wrong thread.
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আপনে পারেনও গুরু...আচ্ছা ওবামার ইফতারীতে পছন্দের আইটেম কি? বুট-পিয়াজু?
__________________
﴾اَلَاۤ اِنَّ اَوۡلِيَآءَ اللّٰهِ لَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَيۡهِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ يَحۡزَنُوۡنَ ۖ ۚ ﴿۶۲
"Listen, the friends of Allah shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve" (Yunus: 62)
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