Collapse of Sunni/Shia and rise of the Koranist

[Rifat]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
I should've phrased my question correctly, ''is that still Qur'anically wrong?'' Surely there may be a thing or two I can learn from people who're inspired by other books which may've been from Allah originally! And about promoting it as Islam: here we come to discussing how we define Islam, which I think we should put a halt to for now.

http://quran.com/3/85
http://quran.com/3/86

Sahih International
And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Muhsin Khan
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

Pickthall
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

Sahih International
How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and had witnessed that the Messenger is true and clear signs had come to them? And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

Muhsin Khan
How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) is true and after clear proofs had come unto them? And Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).

Pickthall
How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and (after) they bore witness that the messenger is true and after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

Surah Ali-Imran ayah 85-86 (Chapter 3, verses 85-86)

[Purbasha T]

What is Islam? What's the definition? What does the Qur'an say about it?

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
What is Islam? What's the definition? What does the Qur'an say about it?

Litteral meaning of Islam is Peace. Followers of Islam are called Muslims. Muslim is a person who submits his 'will' to the God/Allah. Quran calls Islam to be Abraham's religion. Because he submitted his will to Allah and he disobeyed his father for that to reject the statues that they were worshipping.

[Purbasha T]

Good. Now here's a person who believes in God, has submitted his will to God but doesn't quite believe in the Qur'an. Can he be called a Muslim.. according to the Qur'an?

[WorldCup11]

Hi purbasha, I heard about someone (from Quran). Who belives in Allah, who got full believe in the angels and the day of judgement , he was very pious too. But when Allah ordered him to "show respect" to Adam, he disobeyed Allah's command out of his arrogance .

What we can say from here, if someone disobey the command/message of allah (in our case the commands/message came in the form of Quran) , doesn't matter how much iman (belief) he got, may end up with Iblish.

But Allah is very mercyful, he gives enough chances to everyone to repent. Only people/jinn with arrogance found it hard to obey and repent.

Allah knows the best.

[WorldCup11]

Reference for my post above:

2:34


And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

[Sohel]

An antonym of "Theo" in Afro-Semitic languages is "Ego". One cannot be truly Theocentric or sincere in his/her willful submission to GOD by preserving one with a "my way or the highway" approach with any form of Egocentrism. Succumbing to the ego and its fuels (vanity, arrogance, anger, indignation, depression, euphoria, greed, lust, gluttony and brutality) is the biggest and most dangerous form of idolatry IMHO, because it is invisible and integral to what some believe to be our nature. Quran 2:34 illustrates that point and serves as a warning to believers. A key expression of submission is to consciously struggle against ego through regular prayer and meditation, charity and fasting, etiquette and the cultivation of virtues, and use of the intellect in spiritual and as well as worldly matters.

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by Purbasha T
Good. Now here's a person who believes in God, has submitted his will to God but doesn't quite believe in the Qur'an. Can he be called a Muslim.. according to the Qur'an?

NO.

Believing in the books is one of the articles of faith/iman. Five mandatory articles of faith are: Verse 2:177 and few other places...

1. Unity of Allah
2. That Messengers have been sent by Allah
3. That he has created Angels
4. That he has sent Books
5. That there will be a day of judgement.

Not accepting Quran equals to Rejecting Allah's Words ... So that's not submission to Allah, as such he can't be a Muslim.

Accepting it and not following, is something else...

[Purbasha T]

BANFAN bhai, what if this person say is a Unitarian Christian and, in today's world of evident Islamophobia, just never came across the goodness of the Qur'an? Or, just say a deist, who just grew up to hate organised religions so much that never actually took the chance to explore into them, however he did live his life trying to do the right things at every juncture of his life, with the realization of accountability always at the back of his mind?

...

One question I always had: did Allah take the responsibility upon Himself that at some stage of every human being's life He WILL reveal the Qur'an to them and convince them about the Qur'an's authenticity, and then the person would be either accepting or rejecting it? Because otherwise the scenario, at the first glance, looks be unfair?

Allah knows.

...

Also, the verses saying ''All those who believe (in Qur'an), the Jews, the Christians... anyone who believe* and do good deeds will have rewards, and nothing to grieve about''

The traditionalists do explain this verse in a way different from what one would understand at the first reading.

*you'd think it's just talking about the belief in God, but according to the majority it includes the other ''articles'' of faith too.

[Purbasha T]

Quiet silent this place has been for a while, aye?!

[Sohel]

The scholars within the 4 Sunni and the Shia Madhab represent a diverse array of deep, systematic erudition covering wide rage of exegetical questions through an unbroken link of scholars. I feel people need to be deeply exposed to such scholarship before making haphazard and sweeping comments about scholars. They are not all the same, and even when there is Ijmaa on a particular matter, there can be valid dissenting opinions. All of that is a part of the Islamic experience of religious scholarship.

NONE of the duly qualified Madhabi scholars I've met sees him/herself or their consensus to be infallible. GOD knows best, and they never deviate from this truth in any way, shape of form. NONE of them outright reject reasonable exegetical sciences and methodologies outside the Madhabs either, out of the deference to GOD and humility that comes from real Taqwa and Iman. NONE of them practice the shirk of seeing him/herself as GOD's little helper/lawyer/soldier, and try to be diligent in battling the ego through the persistent cultivation of virtue and purification of the soul.

They don't practice Takfir and sectarianism and religious supremacy because scholarship clearly differentiates and never conflates divine/spiritual identity with cultural/political identity, and doesn't indulge the fallacy of mutual exclusivity of such a question. The divine cannot be compared to the human, and must be utilized to inspire a better humanity. I humanity where the common spiritual denominator is sought in good faith and diversity is celebrated in the process. A humanity where righteousness, ever present in every group and all groups are created by GOD Himself, is the ultimate expression of submission.

"O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant." (Quran 49:13)

"And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done." (Quran 6:108)

"O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors." (Quran 049:11)

"The servants of the Almighty are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace." (Quran 25:63)

"You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth carefree. GOD does not like the arrogant showoffs." (Quran 31:18)

"Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend." (Quran 41:34)

"They steadfastly persevere in seeking their Lord, observe the Link (Salat), spend from our provisions to them secretly and publicly, and counter evil with good. These have deserved the best abode." (Quran 13:22)

There is scholarship outside the Madhab systems and a some of that work have merit. Sadly, there are also many that do more harm than good with their militant, my-way-or-the-highway approach utterly devoid of Taqwa. The Quran is the criterion, period, and any work other than the Quran or specifically validated in the Quran -- Torah, Psalms and the Gospel of Jesus (PBUH) -- must be consistent with the letter and spirit of the Quran in the most intellectually honest way. The Hadith or any other work cannot be the criterion to interpret the Quran, but once consistent with the Speech of GOD, can be quite illuminating.

Sadly, we have too many folks, I've recently met another one, who misuse the decontexualize the Quran to falsely justify an ultimately sociopolitical position serving as cover to sublimate some sort of hateful, angry, indignant and intolerant pathology that GOD, our Prophet (PBUH) and great scholars urge us to fight through holistic piety. They tend to use purely external piety to propagate their own psychosomatic agenda under the guise of politicized religion. They believe in creating and imposing the compulsion GOD Himself prohibits and the Prophet (PBUH) stayed away from during his direct rule (Medina Charter).

Islamophobia in many non-Muslim majority countries, especially in Europe, and sectarianism in many Muslim majority countries, especially in South Asia, the Gulf, Yemen, Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, Sudan and Libya need to be engaged in the best possible manner, and I believe ultimately duly qualified and rightly guided scholars from within the Madhab, and outside it must lead the way.

[Purbasha T]

"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, ... whoever believes in Allāh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve ." Quran 2:62

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an) those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Sabians and the Christians―any who believe in Allāh and the Last Day, and work righteousness―on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." Quran 5:69

"Verily, those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Majus, and those who worship others besides Allāh, truly, Allāh will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Verily! Allāh is Witness over all things." Quran 22:17

What are the views of the top scholars in regards to these three verses? Do they all agree with each other, or are there significant differences? Is it only when they use the Hadiths to assist their understanding is when they come up with the current categories of ''faith'' in order to attain Jannah, or is it quite evident from the Qur'an itself?

Is there a top and dependable tafseer website online (I never looked for one)?

[Rifat]

CHILD MARRIAGES
The Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) ) has been accused of being a pedophile due his marriage to 'Aa'ishah at the age of nine.


1. Pedophilia involves adults taking advantage of children by purchasing sexual favors from them. British and German sex tourists being caught in Sri Lanka, Thailand and the Philippines are not seeking marriage but only sex from child prostitutes or impoverished people willing to give their children away for a few pennies.


2. The age of consent for women set in the West varies from 14 to 18. These ages were arrived at by democratic vote and have no actual relationship to the woman's ability or inability for sexual relations or marriage. Consequently, what is considered legal sex in France may be considered rape in England.


3. Islaam sets the age of marriage at puberty, as it is the natural dividing line between childhood and adulthood. Menstruation indicates that a young girl has reached childbearing age. This age may vary from country to country, but it is discernable and not arbitrary.


4. Most societies around the world sanctioned child marriages up until this century. It was not introduced by Islaam but regulated.


5. Islaam stipulates that a girl or boy married before puberty will not live with their spouse until they have attained puberty. Furthermore, they have the right to cancel or proceed with the marriage when they reach puberty.


6. 'Aa'ishah was seven when she was married off to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) to live with him when she reached puberty at nine.


7. Women abused as children usually have difficult times coping as adults. They are often unstable and psychologically handicapped. 'Aa'ishah became the leading female scholar of her time and conveyed to the next generation an enormous body of Islaamic law. She was known to be the fourth most prolific narrator of the Prophetic traditions of all of the Prophet's followers (صلى الله عليه و سلم).

-Shiekh Abu Aminah Bilal Philips

[Purbasha T]

The Qur'an somewhere indicates (while talking about the orphans' rights) that the time for marriage of a person is the time when they are able enough to look after their own financial aspects. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

So would we say nine is a reasonable age for a girl in 7th century Arabia to reach financial maturity?

[Sohel]

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf is a DULY QUALIFIED scholar of the Maliki Madhab. This is what he had to say about the Prophet's (PBUH) marriage to Ayesha, may GOD rest her great soul in peace:



It is always advisable to get an opinion from such scholars rather than televangelists for better insight.

[Rifat]

With All due respect to Hamza Yusuf, He is not saying anything different from what Shiekh Bilal Phillips said.

Allah always preserves the dignity of the true Scholars of the one who protects his deen! Whomever Allah guides none can misguide, and whomever Allah allows to go astray he has no guide!

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by Rifat
With All due respect to Hamza Yusuf, He is not saying anything different from what Shiekh Bilal Phillips said.

Allah always preserves the dignity of the true Scholars of the one who protects his deen! Whomever Allah guides none can misguide, and whomever Allah allows to go astray he has no guide!

If you honestly don't see the qualitative difference between the two, then I have nothing further to say to you bro on this matter. But you'll be in my prayers as always

[Rifat]

Originally Posted by Sohel NR
If you honestly don't see the qualitative difference between the two, then I have nothing further to say to you bro on this matter. But you'll be in my prayers as always

In modern times, This is the scholar I admire the most! Islam in it's most pure, sincere, unadulterated, original form is what I seek Alhamdulillah!

[Rifat]

I love him too :

[Sohel]

Dynamic change in essential to GOD's creation, just look at many examples within the revealed scriptures themselves and the phenomenal world around you. In light of that reality, "form" can never be "pure" or immune from the divine order of things. Only the "spirit" can be pure and must guide us to forms that nurture that purity of spirit.

Emphasis on "pure form" driven by the apotheosis of certain totalitarian outlooks and their subjective take on history they consider somewhat infallible (Astagferullah), coupled with the resultant Takfiri attitude devoid of Taqwa and bordering on Shirk, can and does convolute and obscure the truth as we wallow in the intellectual and spiritual dishonesty of having the "input" match the "expectation". Or using a decontextualized argument to justify a position before resorting to outright playing GOD or His deputy.

The "purists" conflate sociopolitical ideology and spiritual submission and believe that such "purity of form" alone is enough. Such people commit genocide, homicide, suicide and other clearly prohibited atrocities in the name of GOD. Being Bangladeshi all I have to do is look back on 1971 to understand the evil dangers of perhaps inadvertently playing GOD or His deputy. When they try to compel people to follow something that GOD has clearly declared from compulsion, they undermine GOD Himself.

We must use all of the facilities GOD has graced us with -- especially the confluence of the heart and the intellect and righteous actions springing from it in submission to GOD, not the ego including our opinion on GOD and submission -- to seek guidance not only from scholars representing an unbroken link of scholarship since Revelation, but also our own effort. A healthy heart nurturing an open and clear mind -- things GOD has graced us with as always for a purpose -- can make us even better submitters that way.

The way to that healthy heart is through purification of the soul through deep prayer, meditation, contemplation, intellectually honest scholarship, the sustainable fight for justice within GOD's rules and suggestions, fasting, charity of wealth and character, and the cultivation of virtue including Adab. Only through Tazkiyah Al Nafs we may truly submit to GOD and successfully battle the devil in the process. The devil's always working through the ego's propensity for vanity, anger, indignation, depression, euphoria, unreason, greed, gluttony, lust and brutality. Only through Tazkiyah Al Nafs that kind of behavior, as natural as they can be on occasion, cannot become a more permanent state.

Here is my favorite Islamic Scholar on "purity".







Peace and GOD bless~

[Rifat]

Sohel NR Bro,

Thank you for sharing these videos.

Alhamdulillah! While I understand what you said, though I must apologize that i failed to convey what I really wanted to say. When someone Asks me about my identity: I say I am a Muslim, as simple as that, not maliki, Hanafi, shaf'ee, Hanbali, Salafi, Sufi, Tablighi or any other respected group(Though I may personally agree with with most of the teachings from all the mentioned groups). When I said, pure, sincere, unadulterated, original form of Islam I meant Islam as practiced by Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) and his companions(May Allah be pleased with them). They practiced Islam in such a way that They lived their life as if Allah is watching them every moment in their life. There was no contradiction between their speech and actions. Shiekh Abdul Hakim Murad's last video about a women wanting to accept Islam but them someone yelled at her BID'A since she used tasbeeh beats...based on my study of the Life of The Prophet SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam and his companions a true Muslim would have reacted differently to that situation. something similar to this:

He or She would have said, As-salamu A'laikum Sister, that is a nice tasbeet you got there. Did you know that The Prophet SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam and his companions used their fingers to do Dhikr, as it is very easy to keep track and it is quite natural.


My point is the true followers of Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu Alaihe wasallam) are very easy going, tolerant and very respectful. of course, they would NEVER commit such atrocities such as the 1971 war, NOT EVEN to the disbelievers...of course, we say to ourselves, these people who commit/committed such acts, in the name of Islam, how can they be true Muslims and stand in front of GOD when they clearly killed people who

1. Proclaimed to be Muslims

2. the nature of their dealings clearly contradicted the way of the Messenger(SalAllhu A'laihe wasallam) and his companions.

one can clearly conclude that war of 1971 was more of a political battle than a religious one(although a religious excuse may have been used to justify it)!

one more thing, I know very little about the 1971 war, If you have any reliable books/internet sources please feel free to educate me.


one more thing, i only watched a couple of the videos you posted, I havn't watched the other one. so Please be patient with me