Siddons eyes upward curve

[samircreep]

Originally Posted by Raynman
We had this spirit before. Pulling out wins vs. AUS (05), IND (07,04), SA (07), PAK (99) also took the same kind of resolve. The first time we defeated ZIM 5-0, KEN 4-0 and won a Test was big too.

As for numbers and stats, it is Siddons who points to those to show what he believes is growth in leaps and bounds for us.

But for all the resolve in the IRE and ENG match we also showed that 'frail mentality of old' by allowing IND to score 370 and self imploding to 58 vs. WI.

Yes but BD has been playing consistently well for the last two years now. This is the point. For a poor, developing team likee BD, we are allowed a freak 58 all out once a year (hell, India got bowled out for 85 against a SL team without Murali 6 months ago, do you see their fans and admin going crazy??)

BD is developing a killer, let's finish 'em attitutde for the last two years, something that was very much sporadic at best and totally missing at worst in previous coaching tenures. Underestimating this transformation is ridiculous.

But yes, I do agree, Siddons cannot use stats selectively. You either use stats and admit that it has a big role to play in BD's evaluation, otherwise just leave it out.

[Raynman]

A little bit more fuel to add to the fire:

Before Siddons we had the courage to take down the #1 ranked team in the world on two different occassions (AUS in 05 and SA in 07). Under Siddons we have lost horrendously to PAK and WI during their worst streches.

NED posted a 292 and a 306 out of 6 matches this world cup (thats 33%). IRE CHASED down 300+ TWICE. Whats the answer to our batting not being up to par with 2 teams ranked significantly below us.

[Raynman]

Originally Posted by samircreep
Yes but BD has been playing consistently well for the last two years now. This is the point. For a poor, developing team likee BD, we are allowed a freak 58 all out once a year (hell, India got bowled out for 85 against a SL team without Murali 6 months ago, do you see their fans and admin going crazy??)

BD is developing a killer, let's finish 'em attitutde for the last two years, something that was very much sporadic at best and totally missing at worst in previous coaching tenures. Underestimating this transformation is ridiculous.

But yes, I do agree, Siddons cannot use stats selectively. You either use stats and admit that it has a big role to play in BD's evaluation, otherwise just leave it out.

We got bowled out to 58 by the #9 team in the world (at that time) during a crucial WC match. There is a big difference.

I have nothing personal against Siddons and should he find a job elsewhere I will not be hoping he fails. I just think he had the setup and tools and players to give us better results and his approach was the key reason we fell short. I'm not denying we're better off from 4 years ago but I strongly believe everything was/in place to be better than where we are today.

What irks me the most about Siddons is the failure to admit that or even acknowledge that this is attainable. Had he been balanced in taking responsibilty as quickly as he has dished out the blame to the players, I would not be such a strong advocate of him being let go/replaced.

[samircreep]

Originally Posted by Raynman
A little bit more fuel to add to the fire:

Before Siddons we had the courage to take down the #1 ranked team in the world on two different occassions (AUS in 05 and SA in 07). Under Siddons we have lost horrendously to PAK and WI during their worst streches.

NED posted a 292 and a 306 out of 6 matches this world cup (thats 33%). IRE CHASED down 300+ TWICE. Whats the answer to our batting not being up to par with 2 teams ranked significantly below us.

We also lost to canada, Kenya, let no 10 batsman Jason Gillespie score 200 against us, got bundled out countless times below 150 in test match innings, lost close matches against Zimbabwe, pakistan, Sri Lanka, India etc (matches that we now seem to be winning a bit more regularly) etc. The list of Bangladeshi failiures continue.

My point is not that we haven't failed during Siddon's tenure. My point is, we have had more sunny days than rainy days, and we have also gained strengths as a team that mere stats can't reveal, and were clearly missing in the last 6 years. Why is that so hard to admit?

[Baundule]

Samir, there is a thing called natural progress. Football was the dominant sport in Bangladesh until 1997. After the win against Kenya in the ICC trophy final, cricket replaced football. Kids getting involved more in cricket means we used to get more and more natural talent compared to the times of Nannu, Bulbul and Akram. Getting the test status has been a huge boost. The natural ability of the likes of Tamim, Shakib or Sabbir is much superior than the old generation. From that perspective Siddons is the luckiest one of our coaches. If he could used the resources properly, we would not need to compare his success through stats of the Whatmore era.

The players get due credit for taking us to the #8 position; but it is also a result of the demise of WI and Zimbabwe and ICC's reluctance to give us more games against quality oppositions.

[samircreep]

Sorry Baundule, there is nothing 'natural' about progress or regress. Football in BD regressed because we LET the sport regress, while other countries worked hard to progress. In 1982, we drew 1-1 with South Korea. In the 80s and early 90s, we regularly beat Thailand. These countries worked hard to become where they are now, and had we worked hard and sincerely, we would have progressed too. There is no luck or 'naturalness' associated with this.

Let me give you a reverse example. I think Amarnath was the luckiest coach of all. He inherited a team that was finally finding its feet in intl cricket. We had recently beaten MCC for the first time in our history, had hired a foreign coaching staff for a long term contract, and had players like nannu, Moni and Akram Khan at the peak of their playing powers. When we went to play the ICC trophy in Kenya, we were seeded second. The rest is history.

We lost, badly. Amarnath was blamed much for the debacle. He screwed up our fitness (he held an intense fitness camp 2 weeks before the tournament began!), made Jahangir Alam open the innings and keep wickets (he spilled 3 catches in the crucial game against Kenya, since he was not even a regular keeper for Abahani), only chose spinners in the last stages of the tournament, and openly belittled fielding drills as unimportant

Greendige was the unluckiest coach since he inherited a team that was absolutely down on confidence and team that saw nannu et al on the wrong side of 30. Look where that team went.

There was nothing "natural" about the decline or ascent about both these teams, simply poor/good coaching.

JS found a team that could have easily floundered as well, but it didn't; in fact , we are much stronger now than we were 3 years ago. A lot of it certainly has to do with the coaching staff.

[nasim]

Why everyone only point to one day game performance during Siddons era? Why not compare our test performance between pre & post Siddon era? How many times we were bundle out (both innings) in 3 days before Siddon? I remember, on the eve of our 1st tour to Australia, one commentator (can't remember his name) was calling to finish the test in one day, can you imagine any one would dare to say this about BD team now?

[Baundule]

If there is nothing called natural progress in the sense that we will get more gifted players if more kids are playing the game, then you and I are living in different worlds. Sorry for wasting your time.

[cricket_dorshok]

the late David Hooks (so far I remember)).

[samircreep]

I think the ultimate testament to this coaching staff's legacy is that pundits and supporters alike expect us to compete, if not beat, opposing teams every time we play them, no matter what their stature.

Standards have been raised significantly

[Night_wolf]

Originally Posted by amar11432
^^^ numbers don't lie. Statistic is like a miniskirt, they reveal more that what they hide.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Android)

i see shidhuism!

[Fazal]

Originally Posted by amar11432
^^^ numbers don't lie. Statistic is like a miniskirt, they reveal more that what they hide.

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Android)

If statistics is miniskirt, then what is swimsuit? Talent without production?

nah ... on second thought... it must be filtered data. It reveals almost everything except the one you don't want to reveal.

[amar11432]

Originally Posted by Night_wolf
i see shidhuism!

Yep i am a follower

Posted via BC Mobile Edition (Android)

[BanCricFan]

Great discussions going on here. Enjoyed reading some of the posts. I also used to subscribe to the "natural progress" theory wholeheartedly and, in a way, still do. Certainly, Jamie is fortunate enough to inherit a squad which consists of players like Shakib and Tamim. These two are phenomenally talented by any standards. Mushfiq, Junaid, Imrul and Riyad are also great talents. We are witnessing the talent of Imrul now because Siddons has persisted with him like he has done with Raqibul. The copper in Rock hasn't transmuted into gold as of yet but we should remain to be hopeful. The Head Coach of an international team shouldn't be responsible for teaching basics to his players or better still 'discovering' and presenting us fans with new talents or stars. Thats the job for the selectors. Head Coach is there to man manage, inspire, guide, help international players he has been given and come up with effective game plans and longterm visions. But, at present, Siddons has to do all of that plus 'teaching' cricket to the players. We fans sometimes don't see all of that and still expect to beat Aus, SA and SL regularly. To beat top sides regularly we must have, at least, 8 or 9 top players in our side. Currently, we have about 5 or 6.

Siddons was right when he pointed out that we don't have the Pontings and the Tendulkars. And the same will continue to be true as long as BCB doesn't get up and do something about our FC cricket. Poor FC equates to poor Test/ODI players. That simple.

[BanCricFan]

Originally Posted by nasim
Why everyone only point to one day game performance during Siddons era? Why not compare our test performance between pre & post Siddon era? How many times we were bundle out (both innings) in 3 days before Siddon? I remember, on the eve of our 1st tour to Australia, one commentator (can't remember his name) was calling to finish the test in one day, can you imagine any one would dare to say this about BD team now?

Excellent point.

[tejkuni]

I personally think Siddons and his staff should stay for two more years. I am following Bangladesh cricket for along time and I am now far more optimistic than before.

[mar umpire]

Originally Posted by Raynman
A little bit more fuel to add to the fire:

Before Siddons we had the courage to take down the #1 ranked team in the world on two different occassions (AUS in 05 and SA in 07). Under Siddons we have lost horrendously to PAK and WI during their worst streches.

NED posted a 292 and a 306 out of 6 matches this world cup (thats 33%). IRE CHASED down 300+ TWICE. Whats the answer to our batting not being up to par with 2 teams ranked significantly below us.

We didn't play our matches on flat tracks in India, we scored 280+ and were on target for 300+ whoich is quite good considering the mammoth total we were chasing, in the past I would have expected us to fold for 150 or less.

Before siddons we were getting caned by england, 392 should ring a bell and we would have lost by perhaps 200 runs had ashraful not played a blinding 94 (that was after the ball bounced off the bails when Tremlett was bowling.

Under siddons we won our first match against england in england. Which I would rate higher than cardiff-that australian team was at the beginning of the tour yet to hit its straps, destabilised by a driunk Symonds, once symonds returned it was back to normal transmission.

Before Siddons we were losing horrendously to pakistan. Other than 99 we've been caned by them pretty much everytime. BD psychologically are weak against some teams IMO and Pakistan is one of them.

So you want a replacement for Siddons, who do you propose? Who is this tremendous individual that will want to coach bangladesh, in bangladesh and deal with ungrateful fans like us? Greenidge shouldn't have been sacked and we may be repeating our mistake with Siddons.

Siddons was the first one to strongly back shafiul when he came in, and don't forget rubel either, but you conveniently forgot to mention them in your previious posts.

Under siddons bangladesh have not been having the massive innings defeats that we had under whatmore and co against the likes of even NZ, at least this tour around we competed decently.

How many individual players were scoring hundreds before the arrival of siddons? Ash and a couple of others was pretty much it, I'm countting SHakib's 134 against zimbabwe or nafees' results. Now we have quite a few players who have scored hundreds in tests and ODIs.

"Great discussions going on here. Enjoyed reading some of the posts. I also used to subscribe to the "natural progress" theory wholeheartedly and, in a way, still do. Certainly, Jamie is fortunate enough to inherit a squad which consists of players like Shakib and Tamim. These two are phenomenally talented by any standards. Mushfiq, Junaid, Imrul and Riyad are also great talents. We are witnessing the talent of Imrul now because Siddons has persisted with him like he has done with Raqibul. The copper in Rock hasn't transmuted into gold as of yet but we should remain to be hopeful. The Head Coach of an international team shouldn't be responsible for teaching basics to his players or better still 'discovering' and presenting us fans with new talents or stars. Thats the job for the selectors. Head Coach is there to man manage, inspire, guide, help international players he has been given and come up with effective game plans and longterm visions. But, at present, Siddons has to do all of that plus 'teaching' cricket to the players. We fans sometimes don't see all of that and still expect to beat Aus, SA and SL regularly. To beat top sides regularly we must have, at least, 8 or 9 top players in our side. Currently, we have about 5 or 6.

Siddons was right when he pointed out that we don't have the Pontings and the Tendulkars. And the same will continue to be true as long as BCB doesn't get up and do something about our FC cricket. Poor FC equates to poor Test/ODI players. That simple. "
Bancricfan

Good assessment. Unfortunately a lot of the fans harping on here haven't been through much cricketing experience as a player and don't understand how a coach functions in the team. They are more critics than fans in my opinion because they are rave and rant but say little in the way of a possible solution.

[mar umpire]

Originally Posted by nasim
Why everyone only point to one day game performance during Siddons era? Why not compare our test performance between pre & post Siddon era? How many times we were bundle out (both innings) in 3 days before Siddon? I remember, on the eve of our 1st tour to Australia, one commentator (can't remember his name) was calling to finish the test in one day, can you imagine any one would dare to say this about BD team now?

That was David Hookes-you just have to look at the international response to our team and the respect it has attained in the last few years. We have a nucleus of players and we need to stick by our support staff. Only when this generation has retired will we as a nation have the resources to try and develop future players with our own coaches.

[Raynman]

I stand down after today. Let's give the man his due as the greatest coach we couldve asked for and give him an extension

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[mar umpire]

Originally Posted by Raynman
I stand down after today. Let's give the man his due as the greatest coach we couldve asked for and give him an extension

Posted via BC Mobile Edition

Lol I have argued aginst siddons bashers and have asked for the fans to stick by the team etc

I thought the west indies match was an aberration

I was wrong and I'm happy to admit it. The west indies bowled well, SA did not bowl that well that we should have been bundled out for 78

I don't think we have to much to lose now even if we sack siddons

But I also think some players should be held accountable

Fan-e jhulai jhata dye barrono uchit

[amar11432]

I thought the west indies match was an aberration

WI match is the norm, we have been blinded by those unlimited ZIMBO series.