Everything about Hinduism

[Roey Haque]

^Interesting. Most muslims I come across, especially in Bd, they are more into the surrendering, or submitting. Don't hear them talk much about seeking. They treat seeking like it's some sort of portal to evil. Much like how some fundamental Christians claim yoga is "demonic". For eg., folks back home will say things like, "do you obey God?", "do you believe in him?". And the christians will say "do you know you are original sinner?" Everything's about how I can serve him, how I did something wrong. Nothing about me making my own mind up.

[Yankees]

Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
Since we are talking about hinduism.. I want to understand why some preachers of Monotheism scoff at some of these hindu practices and ideas but accepts similar ideas in Abrahamic religious teachings?

Did you know the person Catholics across Latin America pray to most isn't Jesus, but Mother Mary? Is Christianity a monotheistic religion? There is only 1 God, now let us pray to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

[Yankees]

There's alot of things wrong with what you wrote. I'm just going to focus on the below just to save us both some time. But don't mistake my exclusion as approval. You wrote something in the other thread that I enjoyed reading (even thought I disagreed largely) because it was almost an academic approach. But the above is nothing more than your opinion that youre passing off as facts.

Originally Posted by ToBeFair
(2) Despite showing convincing argument for the existence of God, they reject God because they cannot solve the problem of evil. If logical argument points to God's existence, not understanding the problem of evil is not a good ground to reject God.

There has never been or ever will be convincing argument for the existence of God. Believe me, if there were, the world would have no atheists, nor would it be the single largest growing "belief" system in the world.

Originally Posted by ToBeFair
(3) Being science worshipper they want empirical proof for everything including God’s existence. But they miss a few points (a) God is outside the realm of time space, thus empirical proof is not possible (b) empiricism/science is not the only source of knowledge (c) just because science works does not mean it is true. Science is based on observation. If you observe 1 million white sheep does not mean the 1million+1th sheep will be white.

Atheism does not mean science worshipper. Atheism is just the rejection of the concept of God and religion. It is merely rejecting that there is something there which we can't see. As the saying goes "Nijer choke dekhe bishash korlam."

Originally Posted by ToBeFair
(3) The perfect theology of Islam. No religion has the more perfect concept of God than that of Islam. This prefect theology is not only demonstrated in concept in Quran but also demonstrated in each and every ritual and prophetic tradition. This consistency is not possible if the Prophet was an imposter.

Really now? According to who, you? A follower of Islam? Yea, no bias there.

[tonmoy.dhaka]

@BengaliPagol: Your participation (like everyone else) in this thread is entirely voluntary, if you wish not to answer that is entirely your prerogative. Also I do not assume anything, I will always accept a good logical answer.

@Al-Furqaan: Thanks for the explanation. Although I am not sure I understood what you are trying to convey. Just one comment, we atheist/agnostics can be easily molded with logic. Our belief is not absolute. If there is a better explanation for the expansion of space or the source of certain background radiation or the age of the universe (13.8 billion years) that contradicts Big Bang than we would happily accept that. Also Space-time is a single entity, neither space nor time existed before t=0.

@Yankee: Lol.... never thought about that.. absolute gem...

[tonmoy.dhaka]

Quick Question:

How is soul as defined in hinduism ? How is it different from the definition in Islam/Christianity/Judaism?

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
Also Space-time is a single entity, neither space nor time existed before t=0.

a) This is the same as the religious argument of "God is the creator of the Universe, nothing existed before God". The difference is that data suggests (but can't prove) that the Big Bang happened. On the other hand there is no data to suggest that God exists. But the t = 0 argument by both atheists/agnostics is the same as the devout.

b) We don't know anything about what happened at t = 0 because the laws of physics don't exist at that time. Therefore we don't know what happens at t = 0, much less "before" that time.

c) Personally I find the concept of space-time not existing at t = 0 to be inherently non-sensical and self-contradictory. If space is = 0, matter could not exist, because matter takes up space. So that means the Big Bang created matter (violation of the 1st law of thermodynamics...although the laws of physics don't apply at t = 0). Ie the Big Bang = God. And since there is evidence of the Big Bang, there would then be evidence of God. Evidence, but not proof, of course.

d) Some have theorized that the Universe eternally expands and contracts ad infinitum (provided enough dark matter exists)...Big Bang, Big Crunch, another Big Bang, another Big Crunch...etc etc etc. But now its kind of a issue of semantics, we can just call all of the various incarnations of the universe as one super big eternal Universe. Regardless, you just rest with this idea of something just eternally existing.

So as Mufti Abu Layth says, the concept of God is not inherently irrational because we already know of one thing that is apparently eternal and not uncreated: the Universe itself. Its just a matter of blind faith, with no data to back it.

[ToBeFair]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
So as Mufti Abu Layth says, the concept of God is not inherently irrational because we already know of one thing that is apparently eternal and not uncreated: the Universe itself. Its just a matter of blind faith, with no data to back it.

This is wrong, because quantitative infinity cannot exist in space time dimension. If you say the universe is eternal, it means our history is infinite, and it creates the problem of infinite regression. If you accept infinite regression and and infinite past, this amounts to denying your current existence. For you to exist now, the history/past must be finite, and if the past is finite, this means there must be an absolute beginning of this universe.

[SportingBD]

We humans have a finite life. We are born and then must die.
God created the world with a finite life, it is not infinite.

But when we die, we have a infinite life? Since our belief is that the next world we don’t die?

My understanding is everything in this world is finite? And everything unseen is infinite?

[Puck]

I am not going to add to the arguments for and againt god above or for that matter express my views on what the original poster had asked. The thread title reminded me of our Hindu neighbours when I was a child and also the puja festivities we used to be invited to as a family by other Hindu friends. We attended a few over the years as a family when I was young, always fascinated by the colours and the food. The food, especially the sweets, they were divine. When I was tiny, as my mother worked as a lecturer in Jogonath College, some distance away from our flat, I would wander off nextdoor as and when it suited me, away from the very patient young maid servant who was charged with looking after me. The sweets again was one of the reasons for venturing over to their flat, but also, they were very fond of me. One final anecdote, I used to argue around the age of two and half that there should not be any reason why I ought not enter their prayer room while they engaged in arati because my musalmani operation was not until another few months away!

[One World]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
c) Personally I find the concept of space-time not existing at t = 0 to be inherently non-sensical and self-contradictory. If space is = 0, matter could not exist, because matter takes up space. So that means the Big Bang created matter (violation of the 1st law of thermodynamics...although the laws of physics don't apply at t = 0). Ie the Big Bang = God. And since there is evidence of the Big Bang, there would then be evidence of God. Evidence, but not proof, of course.

This argument periphrastically supports string theory. Please expand your perspective beyond four dimensions and some of those obscure phenomenons will start to fall into the matrix.

[tonmoy.dhaka]

Originally Posted by ToBeFair

With regards to the existence of one God, in my humble opinion, there are many convincing and full proof arguments available - the cosmological argument,

I can actually scrutinize most of the points you made in your post. That would divert the original thread. Hence I will just provide a sneak peak (see below). If you want to discuss further please open a thread and I will gladly tell you how you are mistaken.


Cosmology:
1/
[54:1] The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two]

Absolutely false. Nothing to corroborate this claim.

2/ Lunar calender : Why would the creator use the inefficient form of calender. Imagine you are a farmer and relying on lunar calender for farming? It serves no purpose other than to determine some religious timelines (Ramadan etc).

3/ Ramadan- If you are unfortunate resident in the region that gets polar day/night than you will either starve to death or would not require to fast during Ramadan. Ofcourse God should know that but not a merchant in 7th century arabia.

4/ There is nothing in Quran that contradicts the understanding of a man during the 7th century. I can even argue that some of the passage vaguely indicates a geo-centric universe (understanding at the time). However since it is open to interpretation like most things in a vague literature, hence I would not take that road.

5/ [7:54] Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He covers the night with the day, [another night] chasing it rapidly; and [He created] the sun, the moon, and the stars, subjected by His command. Unquestionably, His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, Lord of the worlds. .....

Now there are many things wrong with the above,
First and foremost
A/ What is 6 days? 6 days = 13.X billion years? Basically stolen from the genesis!!
B/ Throne above? what does that mean?
C/ Neither the sun chases the moon or vice versa!! They spin in their own orbit (Sun has an orbit too)
D/ "He created the sun moon and STARS" , however Stars are nothing but Sun's .. ofcourse a 7th century merchant wont know that.

[ToBeFair]

Originally Posted by tonmoy.dhaka
I can actually scrutinize most of the points you made in your post. That would divert the original thread. Hence I will just provide a sneak peak (see below). If you want to discuss further please open a thread and I will gladly tell you how you are mistaken.
....

When I say cosmological argument for God's existence, I refer to following:

The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

The Quran's Argument for God's Existence - Hamza Tzortzis

[Roey Haque]

Originally Posted by Puck
I am not going to add to the arguments for and againt god above or for that matter express my views on what the original poster had asked. The thread title reminded me of our Hindu neighbours when I was a child and also the puja festivities we used to be invited to as a family by other Hindu friends. We attended a few over the years as a family when I was young, always fascinated by the colours and the food. The food, especially the sweets, they were divine. When I was tiny, as my mother worked as a lecturer in Jogonath College, some distance away from our flat, I would wander off nextdoor as and when it suited me, away from the very patient young maid servant who was charged with looking after me. The sweets again was one of the reasons for venturing over to their flat, but also, they were very fond of me. One final anecdote, I used to argue around the age of two and half that there should not be any reason why I ought not enter their prayer room while they engaged in arati because my musalmani operation was not until another few months away!

Lovely stories. Thanks for sharing. I admit it would be better had I titled the thread "Dharmic Faiths and Abrahamic faiths. Inter-discussion". But there is another pov, which is that Hinduism includes everything. According to the Vedanta school of thought, everything is one, Brahman. So you could theoretically sweep every discussion that is going on in this thread under Brahman. I see a lot of people limiting Hinduism, because of adhering to traditions and traditions only. Same with Islam. But then if you go to the text, then you will see it is so much more. Like Al Furquan gave some examples how he can actually use the Koranic text to mean seeking. But had I strictly went by tradition, what preachers preach in mosques, then you were in fact supposed to NEVER doubt.

So yeah, from all sides, try to look beyond the mere traditions and dig deep into the philosophy. And thank you again for keeping it respectful.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by ToBeFair
This is wrong, because quantitative infinity cannot exist in space time dimension. If you say the universe is eternal, it means our history is infinite, and it creates the problem of infinite regression. If you accept infinite regression and and infinite past, this amounts to denying your current existence. For you to exist now, the history/past must be finite, and if the past is finite, this means there must be an absolute beginning of this universe.

I didn't get that. I'm don't see why my existence in the present indicates that the past must have started at some finite time.

Originally Posted by One World
This argument periphrastically supports string theory. Please expand your perspective beyond four dimensions and some of those obscure phenomenons will start to fall into the matrix.

I'll try and look into it although I think thats too complicated for me to fathom.

But can string theory offer a universe where matter has zero volume? For I think if it does, then the existence of a God is not very absurd at all.

[ToBeFair]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
I didn't get that. I'm don't see why my existence in the present indicates that the past must have started at some finite time.

For al Furqan to come into existence, your parents had to exist.

Let

Event 1 = Al Furqan coming to existence
Event 2 = Events that caused Al-Furqan's birth

Event 1 caused by Event 2
Event 2 caused by Event 3
Event 3 caused by Event 4
.
.
.
.
Event ∞ -1 caused by Event ∞
Event ∞ caused by Event ∞ +1

But ∞ -1 = ∞ +1 = ∞

As you see, this is leading to absurdity.

Since there must be a cause for anything to come into existence, the past causes cannot be infinite. If that is infinite, then the present cannot exist.

Thus there must be an uncaused cause, and that is God. For God never came into existence, He always existed and He will.

This is the summary of Surah Ikhlaas:

Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

The third verse says that God always existed, which means He is uncaused, and He caused everything.

[dolcevita]

As this discussion has turned around the existence or not of the God, there is brilliant book, which helps to understand why human created religions:
Sapiens, a brief history of mankind (Yuval Noah Harrari)

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by ToBeFair
.
.
Event ∞ -1 caused by Event ∞
Event ∞ caused by Event ∞ +1

But ∞ -1 = ∞ +1 = ∞

As you see, this is leading to absurdity.

I don't think ordinary rules of arithmetic work with infinity because thats not a discrete number. infinity/infinity does not equal 1, I don't think.

Secondly I don't get why you are adding and subtracting events to/from infinity.

[aklemalp]

I think we need to build a time machine

[SportingBD]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
I don't think ordinary rules of arithmetic work with infinity because thats not a discrete number. infinity/infinity does not equal 1, I don't think.

Secondly I don't get why you are adding and subtracting events to/from infinity.

Isn't everything paired in this world? meaning to say adds up to 1?

Male-female = 1
Darkness-light = 1
Life-death.. = 1

finity-infinity = 1? if you think about it, humans are both finite and infinite?
We are finite in this world, but infinite in the next world.

Just a curious thought...

[ToBeFair]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
I don't think ordinary rules of arithmetic work with infinity because thats not a discrete number. infinity/infinity does not equal 1, I don't think.

Secondly I don't get why you are adding and subtracting events to/from infinity.

Our past events are definitely discrete. Since infinity is not a discrete number, how is it possible to have an eternal (infinite) past which is an ensemble consisting of discrete events?

[Zeeshan]

Y'all really need to take some DMT.

dhur.... khali kochor mochor bhalo lage na...

[Zeeshan]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
I don't think ordinary rules of arithmetic work with infinity because thats not a discrete number. infinity/infinity does not equal 1, I don't think.

Secondly I don't get why you are adding and subtracting events to/from infinity.

Normal rules of math break down in ordinal arithmetic.

[Zeeshan]

Didn't read the whole thread. But I find submission=yielding in Taoism.

You yield to divine's law and will. Your ego dissolves. Submissions manei ei na ami boisha boisha pronam korlam aaraa matha thukrailamm.

Flow state is basically submission. Your ego dissolves. Thus you SUBMIT. Your let your body be an instrument for higher intelligence. Thus in a way an Olympic rowing team, Kobe peaking in a game, an archer, a comedian hitting all the notes, during sex, painting, poetry... they all submit. By letting go of control, they let the their Little Self become the Higher Self when they enter the zone. Which is actually yoga in the truest sense. So back to full circle and point of Hinduism I guess. Cuz yoga really is union. Means yoke and sh...

Acchaa.. Yogananda taar naam yogaananda rakhse kan? Bhodrolok ki boisha boisha yoga kore aar ananda pay?

[Roey Haque]

Originally Posted by Zeeshan
Y'all really need to take some DMT.

dhur.... khali kochor mochor bhalo lage na...

This thread is a gateway to DMT

[Yankees]

I think at this point Roey has learned enough about Hindusim, Islam, and Christianity to become Life of Pi. It's only a matter of time before he goes on a 300+ days journey with a bengal tiger. Ofcourse, the scary part will be once he flings open the tarp and realizes the bengal tiger is actually Mushfiqur Rahim.