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  #126  
Old May 19, 2017, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
Back off from Sabbir for now. Come back and either regret or complain next year.

I liked their commitment with SS ( now its working and SS is bringing something completely different that we never had in our openers).

And I like (so far) experimenting with Sabbir @ #3. I see the potential and I see the possible opportunities with him at #3. The next step is bring Mosaddek earlier. If it works we will be set for long..... it will be an explosive team ....now a days that kind of team you need .... those days of thuk thuk and boom after 40th over cricket is over....if we want to have a competitive team... works or not, these kind of experiment is a must,
Sarkar is an opener and he was played in that slot, his problem was with form, Sabbir isn't in bad form, it just isn't his position.

Those days of 'tuk tuk' isn't the reason we need a sabbir in 3

I'd much rather be 200/3 after 40 overs than 230/7 after 40

And that's not even true with Sabbir at 3,its idiotic beyond belief

What's the point of being said 230,when you scrape to 260 but with aggressive start and intent, than finish on 280 with composure and late fire power

Those teams that go non stop have explosive players all the way down in their team

We've got 2 that go big ones opening another is sabbir, how people think it's good idea to blow your load early is a good thing is beyond me

Sure you might blow away opponents like tyson inside 4 rounds, but get someone who knows a thing or two, then you're huffing and puffing by round 8, and that's what will happen in the champions trophy, we'll start well, but will be huffing and puffing our way to 260, rather than 280+ because 'aggressive intent' is the way to go with Sabbir at 3

Everyone wants/wanted sabbir at 3, but no one is willing to offer a solution for late on when we are huffing and puffing, but no we'll get 350 when we can barely even cross 250 with Sabbir at 3, but he might, just might in his lifetime score a afridi style 100 and take us to 350,then we shall rejoice that we lost dozens of games for that tactic but at last we will have a glorious 350

Works or not... It doesn't work and won't work vs proper teams consistently enough and everyone supporting sabbir at 3 knows it, that's why won't answer how we sort our lower order out to go big when we've got stay not out Ullah, can't time a ball mossadek (big fan, but not lower order material) as our big guns down the order, tops we can do is run a ball in last 10 overs and kill our momentum if we have any, I'd rather have sabbir and get 100 in 10
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  #127  
Old May 19, 2017, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger1000
Sarkar is an opener and he was played in that slot, his problem was with form, Sabbir isn't in bad form, it just isn't his position.

Those days of 'tuk tuk' isn't the reason we need a sabbir in 3

I'd much rather be 200/3 after 40 overs than 230/7 after 40
To me those days of either 200/3 or 230/7 are over. To me if you want a competitive team, neither is acceptable. 250+ will not give too many wins now a days. To win consistently you need to target 290+ and that means you need to take care of the RR in all phases of game. We rarely scored 200 in 40 overs anyway, and therefore your example is flawed in a way.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger1000

And that's not even true with Sabbir at 3,its idiotic beyond belief
No, Sabbir @ #3 is not idiotic. Its experimental which may work or not.

Do you know what is idiotic? Its the constant whining about a young player with full of potential without giving him enough chance. Where were you when Ashraful, Rahim, Riyad was all having lower Average than Sabbir at this time of their career?

This kind of whinning is itself idiotic at its best.

Trust on the coach, and wait how it works out before complaining too much about young payers. And trust me more than often you will be rewarded as a fan.
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  #128  
Old May 19, 2017, 12:50 PM
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I'd take 200/3 against Eng, Aus, SA after 40.
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  #129  
Old May 19, 2017, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
I'd take 200/3 against Eng, Aus, SA after 40.
How often did we ever crossed 200 at 40 over? forget about 3 wickets. We rarely crossed 200 with 3 wicket or less in 4 overs in the past.
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  #130  
Old May 19, 2017, 01:10 PM
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scoring 190/200 in 40 overs and then Boom Boom Afridi and/or Razzak will take them to 290+ was Pakistan's strategy that worked 10 years ago, Now it doesn't work anymore. Just see how India/Australia/NZL/SA approach the game. Now every phase is important, in every phase you need to take care of the RR, just staying in the wicket long enough is not a winning strategy. Just staying in the wicket doesn't mean its ok to screw up the RR ( example culprit: Tamim against NZ). And yes.... taking care of RR doesn't mean you need to score 4s and 6s, some boundaries here and there and 1s and 2s usually keep the scoreboard moving. Frist 10 over is different though, that's where you need to be more aggressive with the boundaries. You need aggressive batsman in the top three.
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  #131  
Old May 19, 2017, 01:14 PM
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In modern era if you don't have a power hitter in the lower order then you will struggle in the final overs. That sounds like a problem with a certain cricket team we know.

200/3 is a good position tho
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  #132  
Old May 19, 2017, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHRAM
In modern era if you don't have a power hitter in the lower order then you will struggle in the final overs. That sounds like a problem with a certain cricket team we know.

200/3 is a good position tho

Yes ofcourse you need power hitter/slogger at the lower end. And that's where Riyad, Mashrafee and Sakib should have played that roll. All three are failing with to play that role (slogger)

May be someone like Taskin and Rubel may play a role in fuuture if they c an fine tune their batting skill. That role need to be played by all-rounders, not a pure batsman like Sabbir, atleast not now. may be in future after the experiment fails.

Just because we need sloggers at the end, doesn't mean we don't need explosive batsman at the beginning. We need both in today's ODI cricket.
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  #133  
Old May 19, 2017, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
To me those days of either 200/3 or 230/7 are over. To me if you want a competitive team, neither is acceptable. 250+ will not give too many wins now a days. To win consistently you need to target 290+ and that means you need to take care of the RR in all phases of game. We rarely scored 200 in 40 overs anyway, and therefore your example is flawed in a way.





No, Sabbir @ #3 is not idiotic. Its experimental which may work or not.

Do you know what is idiotic? Its the constant whining about a young player with full of potential without giving him enough chance. Where were you when Ashraful, Rahim, Riyad was all having lower Average than Sabbir at this time of their career?

This kind of whinning is itself idiotic at its best.

Trust on the coach, and wait how it works out before complaining too much about young payers. And trust me more than often you will be rewarded as a fan.
Then we can't be competitive in modern day cricket, our players may aswell retire

We barely score 200 in 40, but you want us to score more than that so what's more flawed

Sabbir at 3 now is fine, but if he plays in champions trophy it is idiotic

Do you know what really is idiotic is you missing the point

Am not saying don't give sabbir chance, am saying give sabbir a chance to flourish where he feels comfortable, hussey Dhoni made a career out of it

Those examples are flawed, they were given the best platform to perform, Sabbir isn't by batting at 3, you think it's sabbir bashing posts, when in fact am complaining about him not being utilised properly

We cannot get to 290 with power down the order, we will lose wickets trying to slog and slow us down

However If we manage to even get 200/3 or 200/4 after 40,thats 5 an over, then sabbir could take us to that 290

And no we don't need a slogger to get us there, a slogger is mashrafe, we need a proper batsman to take us there, every team has a power hitter (not a slogger there is a difference) down the order and we need one to, and sabbir is that guy

Again lots of words but you don't give a proper plan on how we will get that big score

200/4 or 200/3 after 40 is a reasonable ask and going 10 an over in last 10 is standard and a standard we can match with Sabbir, we can't without him

No need for a 40 off 35 at 3. Players at the top are good enough to adjust
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  #134  
Old May 19, 2017, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
How often did we ever crossed 200 at 40 over? forget about 3 wickets. We rarely crossed 200 with 3 wicket or less in 4 overs in the past.
How will sabbir solve this issue at 3,he'll only make it worse
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  #135  
Old May 19, 2017, 02:09 PM
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If we are to beat Australia, England and New Zealand, we have little choice but to score over 300, but even then that may not be enough. We got the bowling attack, but we need the runs, and plenty of them too. I actually prefer to see Mushy and Riyad slotted at 3 & 4 respectively followed by Shakib, Shabbir and Mosaddek.
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  #136  
Old May 19, 2017, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger1000
How will sabbir solve this issue at 3,he'll only make it worse
He is young and talented. We have to wait and see further if he is the solution or not.


How you are so sure already that he make the situation worse? Why so trigger happy to a young talented player? So far he has some mixed result. How come you are not complaining about Sakib's batting, Riayd's failure to play slogging overs, Mushfiq's lack of performance after being promoted in the batting order, Mashrafee invisible batting, too long tail none of them can score quick runs in few leftover overs?

Sabbir is too good to waste him at #7.
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  #137  
Old May 19, 2017, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger1000
Then we can't be competitive in modern day cricket, our players may aswell retire

We barely score 200 in 40, but you want us to score more than that so what's more flawed

Sabbir at 3 now is fine, but if he plays in champions trophy it is idiotic

Do you know what really is idiotic is you missing the point
No sir, your constant whining is annoying and idiotic. A real idiot thinks he is the real smart one and all the coaches and the captain are idiots (by sticking with Sabbir at #3).... that proves who is the real idiot here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger1000
Am not saying don't give sabbir chance, am saying give sabbir a chance to flourish where he feels comfortable, hussey Dhoni made a career out of it.
The coach doesn't think he was given enough try to say its a fail experiment, so do I. That's why the coach is still sticking with him. And I have no problem with that. I dont know what game you are watching, he looks comfortable to me, the issue is, once set he need to stick longer. That is a common problem with young players.


Quote:
We cannot get to 290 with power down the order, we will lose wickets trying to slog and slow us down
Then forget about expecting to win consistent basis. End of discussion.

We are in transition mode, and the coach is trying his best to move towards with that goal.



Quote:
However If we manage to even get 200/3 or 200/4 after 40,thats 5 an over, then sabbir could take us to that 290
200 to 290 in 10 over is not easy tasks, plus we will not accomplish our goal (200 in 40 overs) unless we have some positive game and some attacking firepower at the top 3. Just go and look at our past records .... how many times did we achieved that goal? We start slowly, play too defensively then panic and then realize RR is below par then do suicidal attempt and end up loosing 5/6/7 wickets scoring 185 in 40 overs.... that's the reality.... 200/3 is not happening with Tamim/Emrul/Riyad hogging the overs.



Quote:
Again lots of words but you don't give a proper plan on how we will get that big score
Proper or non-proper planning, this coach is trying. Sticking with SS was the evidence that they want to address it. Maybe Sabbir will be one step forward or may be not.... we have to wait and see. The coach has plan.... it may work out or not... but to say "there is no plan" is plain and simple lie.



Quote:
200/4 or 200/3 after 40 is a reasonable ask and going 10 an over in last 10 is standard and a standard we can match with Sabbir, we can't without him
Sabbir has a role (like it or not), so does Sakib, Mushfiq, Riyad and Mashrafee with the bat in the middle; then there is the tail. If they cannot perform their duty with the bat (even after playing so many games), why hide them? Time to think to replace them and find someone who can play that role i.e. slogging in the late overs. It is well documented Riyad doesn't feel comfortable batting #3, Musfiq doesn't want to bat early, Sakib with his current batting form will be suicidal, mashrafee cannot bat anymore.....too long tail at the end... that is the problem currently... not Sabbir at #3.


Quote:
No need for a 40 off 35 at 3. Players at the top are good enough to adjust
And I have to disagree. 35 runs off 34 (at 3) may not be a great performance but its perfectly ok for me to dream great in future. It may not be a game winning innings, its a very good supporting score. While you see the glass half empty, I see the glass half full.
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  #138  
Old May 19, 2017, 05:36 PM
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No one is going to convince me that having sabbir at 3 isnt going tobe liability against Australia and England.

The next game against NZ is going to expose him again, if the openers fall early.
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  #139  
Old May 19, 2017, 05:42 PM
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Shakib is certainly capable of power hitting, so is riyad if he's in the team. Mosaddek and nasir if they get a few overs will score at a 100+ strike rate, they might not hit as many 6s but they still score quickly.

Also take a look at domestic results, shanto actually hits quite a few 6s, he's also young and could do with early international exposure so a possible introduction for him could be down the order. Liton could possibly take over the gloves and bat low as he also scores quickly. Even anamul, could become a lower order hitter, if he his given strict instructions to go out and hit he could be an option.

I think it's more important to set up the top order and middle order before the lower order because a really good top order will still get us 300+ then the middle and lower order will get us right up past there whereas an average top order will always put pressure on the middle and lower order. Imo doing it that way gives us more opportunity more often to score 300+, it's tough to except the lower order to do all the work all the work all the time, top order need to be working to the team score also and try and take some pressure off the lower order.

Tamim isn't that quick starter he used to be, if Soumya gets out early, we don't have anyone up top to get the innings off relatively quickly unless someone like Sabbir is there. Now I'm not saying he should be always trying to score at 100+ strike rate but he naturally scores quickly so if he dials it back a bit and aims for an 85/90+ strike rate to begin with (even if he takes a few balls to get in) then the team is going to benefit immensely. That's why mushy is also an option at 2. After these two I'd say mosa and nasir are possibly equipped to play this role also, maybe liton and shanto might be. But to me those are the options for 3.

As far as Sabbir, he isn't purely a lower order bat, most of his domestic career he's batted 4-6 which imo clearly categorises him as middle order. We can say don't bring players up the order but look at the fab 4: Williamson, smith, Kohli, root. They aren't openers and haven't always been no3s but are the worlds best currently.

A no3 doesn't have to be an opener, plenty come up from the middle order to bat at 3.

Williamson debuted at 4, root didn't even bat in his debut match and 6 walked onto the park with the blade, Kohli actually opened (didn't know that, was he a regular opener in domestics before international debut?), smith also didn't bat in his debut ODI and 7 did so he would've at best come in at 8.

Sabbir may not turn out at 3, but so far who has? And please don't say imrul because in a modern day context his strike rate isn't high enough, he might be our best to date but that doesn't mean he is the way forward. Imrul migh be our best option now but if players are developed properly we will have a better option at 3 than imrul in the next couple of years but they need the time to get experience and develop.

The point of my post is to say, be open to different options. Kohli didn't stay as opener, Williamson didn't remain at 4, smith and root no longer bat at 7/8.
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  #140  
Old May 19, 2017, 05:51 PM
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SO we are not happy with Sabbir's performance @ #3. So who do we replace him with? Sakib? Riyad? Mushfiq?

All have been tried before. Lets see what is their performance in the past (ODI):


Mushfiq: 11 times tried at #3, Average 20.50
Sakib: 1 times tried @ #3, Average 0
Riyad: 7 times tried @ #3, Average 22.42

How about Imrul at #3?

Imrul: 7 times tried at #3, Average 15.28


Still not happy with Sabbir? Ok pick your poison pill.

Its time to wake up from lalaand and face the reality.... the reality is currently we don't have any proven commodity at #3 better than Sabbir.
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  #141  
Old May 19, 2017, 06:25 PM
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How about look at stats of between the overs of 0-15 where the number 3 is expected to survive on the last four years.
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  #142  
Old May 19, 2017, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nafi
How about look at stats of between the overs of 0-15 where the number 3 is expected to survive on the last four years.
You have the raw data my friend and the average with no filter.

If you don't like the data, of course you can try to massage the data to prove your point.... that is called doing prostitution with the stat.

If someone has an average of 15 or low 20s at #3, I don't know what good he will do to team at #3 replacing Sabbir. The reality is we never had a good #3 for a while.
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  #143  
Old May 19, 2017, 06:57 PM
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To score 290+ in ODI, our players not only need to score big, they need to have healthy SR.


The career ODI SR of Imrul is 60s
The career ODI SR of Tamim, Rahim, Riyad and Anamul is in the 70s
The career ODI SR of Sakib, Mashraafee Nasir is in the 80s

The career ODI SR of Sabbir, SS and Mosaddek is upper 90s


The young players are all addressing their SR. (except for Anamul and Nasir).
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  #144  
Old May 19, 2017, 08:02 PM
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The truth is as Fazal has already pointed out, we don't have a specialist number 3 as well. Nobody in domestics is performing in that position, and the truth is we can only consider a right hander. Mosaddek being the only left solution is very very susceptible against pace, atleast the coach isn't convinced. Batting at 3 is really a specialist position because you have almost the whole innings at times to play with and you are dealing with the hard new ball so your technique and temperment both have to be impeccable.

Someone asked me when did I see him being in form in number 3? I will throw you a name, Sanath Jayasuriya. The coach in the 96 world cup had a plan, to use the powerplays and use a pinch hitter to throw off the opposition, at that time Jayasuriya had absolutely no average or any known batting prowess. His average was 20 and SR was 75
Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Career averages

Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s
unfiltered 1989-2011 445 433 18 13430 189 32.36 14725 91.20 28 68 34 1500 270 Profile
filtered 1989-1995 91 84 2 1655 140 20.18 2192 75.50 1 9 7 142 32

Nowhere world class, but he was picked on ability and the need for the team. Shabbir hasn't shown anything in the national team at 3, but he has shown devastating ability in Under -19, the Asian Games (A team), most recently at BPL and yes at number 3, DPL and yes at number 3 and also he scored a 100 in the practice game. So he has shown ability or form if you want but he hasn't shown it fully at number 3 in the national team. If he is allowed to play there for the next 10 years, I can write this down for you with 110% confidence, he is going to make heads turn. Ask any foreigners, ask yesterday's commentators, ask any neutral observers, he is one of the special ones atleast in the BD team. The reason Shabbir is there now because like Sanath Jayasuriya we need an attacking batsman who can take the game away from the opposition, the kind of impact Sanath had on opposition we want to bring that attacking cricket to our team. Yes, there are easier ways, we can be 200-3 or whatever but looking at other teams when everybody is going attack attack attack, we can't go backwards and say defend defend attack. No way!!!

I can give you countless examples, English cricket's revolution is the best recent one. Once they adopted the modern game they are becoming a force. Even with Shabbir at number 3 I still feel we lack the power in the team but to me going backwards is not the solution. I think we need to look what's happening around us and go forward, not backward.
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  #145  
Old May 19, 2017, 08:49 PM
Gowza Gowza is offline
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Nazmul is a specialist number 3 and has performed this season in domestics....he also has a healthy strike rate...
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  #146  
Old May 19, 2017, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazal
SO we are not happy with Sabbir's performance @ #3. So who do we replace him with? Sakib? Riyad? Mushfiq?

All have been tried before. Lets see what is their performance in the past (ODI):


Mushfiq: 11 times tried at #3, Average 20.50
Sakib: 1 times tried @ #3, Average 0
Riyad: 7 times tried @ #3, Average 22.42

How about Imrul at #3?

Imrul: 7 times tried at #3, Average 15.28


Still not happy with Sabbir? Ok pick your poison pill.

Its time to wake up from lalaand and face the reality.... the reality is currently we don't have any proven commodity at #3 better than Sabbir.
When was the last time mushy played at 3?
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  #147  
Old May 19, 2017, 10:25 PM
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Sarkar is a well known hard worker. He has deficiencies but there is s hope he will improve just like Tamim did in his early days.
Not so sure about Sabbir.
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  #148  
Old May 19, 2017, 11:06 PM
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Every now and then we like to make a villain out of a player. How many threads were there about getting rid of Hathurusingha's favorite son Soumya Sarker. Tamim Iqbal, Mahmudullah, Mushfiq-no ones spared.

Sabbir will perform again, and when he does, we ll probably find another target
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  #149  
Old May 19, 2017, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeesh
Every now and then we like to make a villain out of a player. How many threads were there about getting rid of Hathurusingha's favorite son Soumya Sarker. Tamim Iqbal, Mahmudullah, Mushfiq-no ones spared.

Sabbir will perform again, and when he does, we ll probably find another target
No ones hating on sabbir. Ppl simply pointing out the fact that hes playing out of position. I along with many other posters backed Soumya up. They are not necessarily connected
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Old May 20, 2017, 12:35 AM
jeesh jeesh is offline
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Join Date: January 4, 2005
Location: Colombo, Sri Lanka
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Well the team management, coach, captain all seem to have faith in him in the position he is playing. So lets give the boy a bit of chance.

Its good that you backed Soumya. But if you look back you were probably among the minority. Even the press were having a field day at the expense of Soumya.

We fans need to be patient with our players. Everybody goes through a lean patch now and then.
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