How many ...

[Navarene]

Mr. al Furqaan, would pls stop mumbling with the word "kafir"??? This a very derogatory word to a apply to any human being!

i think all subcontinent teams are doing well to incorporate minorities.

Weird comment! Players are selected in terms of their merit and talent in BD cricket team. It is not BCB's job to incorporate minorities in the team.

[Zunaid]

Originally posted by Saurav
For Zunaid:
deleted for brevity

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Saurav : Salutation]

I will make one comment and take this off line since it may not be relevant to the forum. I think you misread my intent - I wasn't scoffing at your interest . I apologize if I gave you that impression. I kind of extrapolated it into meta-issues and had no desire nor the intention to look for hidden motives. As for anthropology and such stuff - we should have a chat (offline of course - one of my passions is linguistic anthropology).

To forum members: I hope we all use our discretion and better judgement when following up on this thread. Threads like this often have the tendency to degenerate.

Moderator voice: I'll be unusually strict in following this thread.

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Zunaid]

[reinausagi]

Moderator voice: I'll be unusually strict in following this thread.

Zunaid has laid down the law with 'Jessopian' speed. Sorry guys, I just had to use that term, after learning of it's existence on another thread.

[SS]

ok Mr.Saurav I guess you got the answer of who is Hindu, who is muslim, who are you, what's ur origin..does it matter..i..does it matter??? i guess we shoudl stop the topic

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by SS]

[fwullah]

FW> what Bangladesh do you live in?

Bangladesh Cricket World, I guess.

[Zobair]

Religion and sports should not be mixed at any level whatsoever. People who do it do so out of ignorance in my opinion.

The sole yardstick for judging cricketers should be their cricket ability, not their religion and other beliefs. Teams should not be selected on the basis of colour and creed. I am not in favour of affirmative action in Cricket either. For me, if the Bangladesh team is composed of 11 non-Muslims because they are the best in terms of abilities, then I will be as ardent a supporter of the team, as I would be with a team made of 11 Muslims.
Having said all that I have never heard any communal discourse of any nature regarding Bangladesh cricket. Bangladesh cricket may not be the ideal meritocracy (like the rest of the affairs of our country) but creed has never had to do anything with it. In fact, I find the dearth of any meaningful (or meaningless rather!) discussion about the nice communal blend (or the lack of it) in our discourse very refreshing. It shows that communalism doesnot figure high on our minds. I can honestly say that in my lifetime as a Bangladeshi cricket fan, I have never ever heard of any communal bias expressed by either our fellow fans, players, commentators or the administration. It is a nice achievement and hopefully we will keep it that way, and not go the way of some of the Indians and the Pakistanis . I have heard minority players on both Indian and Pakistani teams being explicitly accused of being traitors, and I hope I have never have to see that kind of a day dawn in our cricket. Because to be honest, a part of me (as a bangladeshi Cricket fan) will die that day.

[fwullah]

The confusion among our membership as to what religion Hannar Sarkar subscribes to PROVES that we really don't care what the religious make up of the BD team is. All we care about is that they are Bangladeshi gentleman cricketers.

There's a valid point there - I used to think all this time that Hannan Sarkar is a hindu, not really going through all the details of 'Abdul Hannan being an arabic name'.

[Arnab]

Religion and sports should not be mixed at any level whatsoever.

Yeah? What's your take on all the religious speeches Pakistani players give at the end of a match?

[fwullah]

i am a rajakar

I don't exactly know how the 'copyrights' law act on the Internet (of Bangladeshi origin), but saying the above words could be very harmful if spoken in an otherwise peaceful place in Bangladesh.

[Zobair]

I don't have any problems players have religious beliefs and expressing it (if they wish so) in non-confrontational ways. Perhaps I should have been more explicit. I am ok with "Thank you Tony, I owe it all to Allah/bhagwan/God". He did his bit on the cricket field, he can choose to dedicate it to whoever he chooses. I am not ok with "He is a better (or not better depending on the case) cricketer coz he is a Muslims/Hindu/God-fearing/atheist" line of arguements. In other words my beef is with religion being mixed into sports debates and discourse.

[Beamer]

or praying on the field together as a team? wrong thing to do. you relegate the likes of youhana or kaneria automatically by being exclusive. But that is Pakistan and religion was the sole region behind the birth of that nation along with Israel ( only two countires in the world). However, no one should have any problem if religious practices are done privately.

[crazyisland]

Shourav,
You sound to me a radical religious believer the kind who see everything from religious point of view. Don't worry , in Bangladesh minorities are far secured compared to our neighbors. I don't see any point discussing the issue you have brought up. Get over and above this religion thing.

[Navarene]

Originally posted by crazyisland
Shourav,
You sound to me a radical religious believer the kind who see everything from religious point of view.

crazyisland, let's not be judgemental to saurav as a person. I afraid we are reading way too much out of his original post. He simply asked a few innocent questions out of curiosity to enlighten him. Nothing much.

[Ahmed_B]

I should say that this is a very good thing in BD cricket (even all other sports) that communal choices have never emerged as the villain!...
BD fans r crazy about any team member who can show some gutts on the field.. matterless of his Religious or Ethenic or Educational ( ) background!!

..& bye the way... Hannan sarkar is confirmed Muslim

[Zunaid]

Moderator voice:

Thanks Navarene... I hope this keeps the lid on.

crazyisland, this is too much a flame and I would encourage you to edit/modify your post.

Sourav, please let this one pass I think most people do get the reason for your query.

[Addition: saw the second post by crickethorizon: thanks]

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Zunaid]

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Zunaid]

[Zobair]

or praying on the field together as a team? wrong thing to do. you relegate the likes of youhana or kaneria automatically by being exclusive. But that is Pakistan and religion was the sole region behind the birth of that nation along with Israel ( only two countires in the world). However, no one should have any problem if religious practices are done privately.

Very interesting point. This is where it enters into the "grey area" for me. I am a practising Muslim and so I am well aware of the significance on praying in Jamaat (congregation) for Muslims.One of the reasons this is done is to build a sense of community and brotherhood. But as far as I know this is a preferred practice of the Prophet PBUH though it is not compulsory at all times (exceptions include Friday, Funeral and Eid prayers). The non-Muslims may feel excluded by this practise and there is no denying that. Yet, I would definitely consider it wrong if the team deliberately prevents players from praying together since that is impinging on a fundamental right of the players to practise their faith (reminds me of the whole 'hijab ban' in france episode). What I would do is instead ensure that the practise of faith by a particular group shouldnot be made the priority of the team management i.e. it shouldnot take centre-stage. Players can worship together in a corner, get over with it and move on, and not bring the world to a standstill while they are at it. This should minimize alienation to a minimum since players are not "losing out on privileges or limelight" because of their faith if you know what I mean. I am by no means suggesting that this is what the Pakistani team is doing. I won't pass judgement on that since I don't exactly know how they are going about it.

[akabir77]

Originally posted by pompous

Very interesting point. This is where it enters into the "grey area" for me. I am a practising Muslim and so I am well aware of the significance on praying in Jamaat (congregation) for Muslims.One of the reasons this is done is to build a sense of community and brotherhood. But as far as I know this is a preferred practice of the Prophet PBUH though it is not compulsory at all times (exceptions include Friday, Funeral and Eid prayers). The non-Muslims may feel excluded by this practise and there is no denying that. Yet, I would definitely consider it wrong if the team deliberately prevents players from praying together since that is impinging on a fundamental right of the players to practise their faith (reminds me of the whole 'hijab ban' in france episode). What I would do is instead ensure that the practise of faith by a particular group shouldnot be made the priority of the team management i.e. it shouldnot take centre-stage. Players can worship together in a corner, get over with it and move on, and not bring the world to a standstill while they are at it. This should minimize alienation to a minimum since players are not "losing out on privileges or limelight" because of their faith if you know what I mean. I am by no means suggesting that this is what the Pakistani team is doing. I won't pass judgement on that since I don't exactly know how they are going about it.

On this matter I want to point out one thing many player in many sports shows their religious belief. example Rolando crosses his hart (christen believe) after he scores also a player from Spain (forgot his name), in baseball most of the player when they come out from their dugout they cross their hart and when hits home runs looks above and say their small prayers... so what’s the problem if Muslims shows some religion?

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by akabir77]

[Beamer]

Well said, pompous. I am not judging the pakistanis here but such public showing of fraternity, however innocent it may be, may alienate the minorities in a team setting. Judging from their history of religious and ethnic intolerance that has caused so many strifes, its hard to give them the benefit of doubt though. I agree with everythign you said. To prevent people from praying will also be an infringement on their right to express religious freedom. Point well taken. Its just better, in my mind, to keep religious activities for private consumptions, and enhanced visibilty more often than none can lead to unpleasant situations.

[Beamer]

akabir77
Thats individualism in that case and Brazil or Spain are pretty homogeneous ( all catholics )in terms of religion. Nothing wrong with muslims showing their faith but its also your duty not to alienate a minority in your team. thats all

[Zobair]

Thanks Beamer. I was actually disturbed by the photograph of the players praying together- emphasis on photograph! This is an instance of what minority players may call "privelege" or "being in the limelight" (photographed in a group), and being the only ones to miss out on the opportunity because of their faith may cause them to feel excluded!

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by pompous]

[Beamer]

Absolutely correct you are. I didn't like the picture as well. I thought it was pretty political, you know, playing India after all to show the public. pretty cheap. I hope we never resort to these type of stunts.
Saeed Anwar and Saqlain Mushtaq on the otehr hand, keeping beard to show faith is totally different case and purely individual, and I hope people dont connect the two.

[crazyisland]

Originally posted by Navarene
crazyisland, let's not be judgemental to saurav as a person. I afraid we are reading way too much out of his original post. He simply asked a few innocent questions out of curiosity to enlighten him. Nothing much.

I am not sure if his intention behind that question is that innocent. I have met few people who like put up a face of a moderate on the outside - where inside they have hatred for other religion or country. And sometimes they show their real face through such "innocent" questions. I wouldn't be surprise if he goes out to other Forum and say things like "Bangldesh's playing test is a Joke".

I just think talking about or thinking of terms of "who is Hindu, who is Muslim , why Muslim or why not Hindu - etc" is a disgrace itself. I have been following this forum for a while and I think question/topic like this just does not belong here. It's really a shame that we are discussing our player's religion on this board. Who cares who is what..Let's talk about cricket.

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by crazyisland]

[akabir77]

Originally posted by Beamer
Absolutely correct you are. I didn't like the picture as well. I thought it was pretty political, you know, playing India after all to show the public. pretty cheap. I hope we never resort to these type of stunts.
Saeed Anwar and Saqlain Mushtaq on the otehr hand, keeping beard to show faith is totally different case and purely individual, and I hope people dont connect the two.

I agree with you two. Thanks for clearing that out. I am also opposing to showing fake faith like pakistanis do… To my knowledge and have seen first hand what they do after game when they return to the hotel room.. Exception one or two…. Individually every one should be allowed to do their prayers not to show that I am a good Muslim. What I want to say is when we go to a funeral or christen people comes to Muslim occasions every one prays together but in their own belief. And in cricket we can do that to if the player thinks it’s needed.

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Zunaid]

[al Furqaan]

Originally posted by Navarene
Mr. al Furqaan, would pls stop mumbling with the word "kafir"??? This a very derogatory word to a apply to any human being!

Weird comment! Players are selected in terms of their merit and talent in BD cricket team. It is not BCB's job to incorporate minorities in the team.

firstly, the word 'kafir' can mean many things as far as i am concerned. all of them mean 'disbeliever' and their are varying levels with which it can be applied. one is 'non-muslim'. this is not offensive and this is the way in which i meant it. it can also mean 'disbeliever' and this is moderately offensive. then there is 'infidel' the final and undoubtably derogatory term. this term i would only use after being viciously attacked by a 'non-muslim' first. i used the word kafir both because it is easier to type than 'non muslim' and also because i wanted to see what the response would be from banglacricket's mostly muslim readers.

secondly, i did not advocate that teams should put in minorities just to fill some affirmative action quotas. what i meant was that the fact that all 4 sub-continental teams had minority caps in their squads shows that they were obviously not keeping talented players out because of relgion.

about salaat in jammaat: it is vastly better to offer prayer in jamaat rather than everyone pray by themselves. no one denies this fact. if the bangladeshi or pakistani players want to perform prayers in jamaat, then they should do so by any means. there is no hostile attempt to exclude non-muslim players because if that were the true intent then how would these players be on the team to begin with. by the same argument one should say that all jamaat prayers in Bdesh should be banned as there are some 20 million non-muslims in the country that will feel left out. please. i am a muslim born and raised in the USA. i know everything about being a religious minority which most of you in Bdesh do not. when my friends talk about jesus or going to church, it only stregnthens my faith. i don't feel left out and wish that i could convert to xtianity. bottom line is that if they wish, the Bangladeshi players should pray in jamaat and let everyone know that they are muslims. there shouldn't be a stigma for people to practice the relgion that they believe in, whatever that relgion might be.

[Zunaid]

Moderator role off:

The discussion has changed for the better and is very interesting, though it is losing relevance to this forum. In my moderator role, I was considering sports/religion portion to Forget Cricket but there is no way to move part of the thread and lose context (the first part is obviously relevant here). Could I urge all of you to retire to Forget Cricket and I (in my moderator role) will see if I can migrate the articles over?

Thanks

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Zunaid]