A comparison between Bashar and Ashraful in ODIs

[Miraz]

Bashar is a poor ODI player, most of the BC members have no doubt in this statement. I also share a similar thought. However, I was quite surprised when I compared his stats with one of the best ODI player of Bangladesh.

Bangladesh - One-Day Internationals

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
Habibul Bashar	1995-2007	111	105	5	2168	78	21.68	3586	60.45	0	14	18
Mohammad Ashraful	2001-2008	111	105	10	2157	100	22.70	2953	73.04	1	13	10

After equal number of matches and equal number of innings, Bashar has scored 11 runs more, both of them have same number of 50+ innings, (Ash has one century and 13 50+ scores). The slightly higher average of Ash is due to his higher number of not outs (5 vs 10). Really it's difficult to separate the two in terms of stats.

This only shows, how poor we are in international cricket!!

Hardly any difference between one of the best and a mediocre ODI player.

[Murad]

Ashraful started doing a bit well since the England tour of 2005. Before that his average was around 14 from 47/48th matches.

Before that he played mostly as an opener, which he wasn't. That also played the role of in his poor average.

I think they played him way too many matches after he debuted. They saw him failing but still kept him in the playing eleven for so long. They should have sent him to the A-team instead. He could have learned a lot by playing more domestic and A-team matches.

And this is the problem he's having now. He will struggle to compete with the new comers in most occations. The newcomers got more experienced by playing for u19, Academy, A-team and Domesic crickets. They had difference coaches and staffs which Ash didn't.

Bygones are bygones. He has to do well in order to be in the current team. If he fails, I'm sure he will lose his place.

Career averages since June 2005

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	2001-2008	113	106	10	2157	100	22.46	2954	73.01	1	13	11	227	21	Profile
filtered	2005-2008	65	59	8	1398	100	27.41	1774	78.80	1	9	5	154	12

Stats since 2005 England Tour

[TomalCA]

I am now waiting for 'someone' to come up with a peculiar idea of counting only those ODIs happened since 2004

[Miraz]

muradnyc, Bashar's stat for the same period almost resembles that of Ashraful.

Career averages (Bashar)

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St
unfiltered	1995-2007	111	2168	78	21.68	0	1	1/31	142.00	0	26	0	Profile
filtered	2005-2007	53	1126	78	26.80	0	-	-	-	-	15	0

Career averages (Ashraful)

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St
unfiltered	2001-2008	113	2157	100	22.46	1	11	3/26	34.27	0	18	0	Profile
filtered	2005-2007	64	1358	100	27.16	1	3	2/9	19.66	0	12	0

[Spitfire_x86]

Originally Posted by Miraz
muradnyc, Bashar's stat for the same period almost resembles that of Ashraful.

Ashraful against Top 8, since 1st April 2005

Bashar against Top 8, since 1st April 2005

In a nutshell

      Ash    Bashar

Inns  (34)   (26) 



Avg   25.37  20.56

SR    78.60  57.04

100s  1      0

50s   6      2

Need I say more? Maybe you're bored or something, but anyone who has actually seen both Bashar and Ashraful play will know who's a better ODI player without bothering to look up any stats. Now if you're trying to remind us how all of our batsmen suck compared to International standards, you aren't telling anything new that we already don't know.

[Miraz]

Spitty, I had no intention to make Bashar look better. I have already branded Bashar as a mediocre ODI player in the opening post.

This only shows, how poor we are in international cricket!!

Hardly any difference between one of the best and a mediocre ODI player.

If I do some S Rajesh like you (say last 20 ODI innings etc.), I am sure Bashar won't fare as bad as your stats say.

I haven't taken any filter in my original stats.

[Pundit]

At this spoint it is useless to pursue such comparisons.

Bashar is a dead horse. He may or may not be better than Ashraful. An average of 5 runs more/less between 2 players is irrelevant. That does not contribute in anyway to Bangladesh's fortunes, which right now is defined by wins.

A 5 run delta is important across the batting line-up, as it can potentially add 30- 50 runs to our totals. Also, since batting spreads are not tight, it can also mean that players are more likely to have scored higher runs in any one game...which could have translated to a victory.

To Spitty's point...that is where the focus now ought to be...how Ashraful can get 5 run increments in every 2 years of his career going forward. And that only with the top 8 teams.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Spitty, I had no intention to make Bashar look better. I have already branded Bashar as a mediocre ODI player in the opening post.
If I do some S Rajesh like you (say last 20 ODI innings etc.), I am sure Bashar won't fare as bad as your stats say.

I haven't taken any filter in my original stats.

actually, in retrospect, i feel that S Rajesh was doing a decent job. i fully and unconditionally apologize to him because i realized i do the same thing. i take back every mean and nasty thing i posted about him here. i hope he and his followers can forgive me.

********

Miraz, look at the strike rate that bashar maintains. btw, those matches are the last 20 matches that bashar played. he has an average which is significantly lower than ash's...but his SR is the most appalling thing. if JO is reviled for his 52 % scoring rate, bashar should be for his marginally better rate.

furthermore, we all know that ash is capable of averaging any number under the sun. the same cannot be said of bashar or even most other international batsmen.

just because one is "pulling an S Rajesh" should not be grounds for discounting those statistical findings.

ash's early career had a 15 average...thus bashar has never been close to the near 30 average ash has been pulling for some time now. with a far higher strike rate - which is of paramount importance in ODIs.

[al Furqaan]

If I do some S Rajesh like you (say last 20 ODI innings etc.), I am sure Bashar won't fare as bad as your stats say.

bashar's stats won't be as bad, they'll be worse. remember the 9 world cup matches will weight 45% of his most recent 20. he averages what 12 in those matches at a sub 50 strike rate, IIRC.

[Russell2k7]

Originally Posted by Miraz

Hardly any difference between one of the best and a mediocre ODI player.

See the issue to me is not about comparing Ash with Bashar but what you said above, which is 100% correct.

[thasan]

im sure someone will shave off their 50+ innings and compare their averages.
personally, im not a big big fan of ash. but hes probably the best weve got

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by Russell2k7
See the issue to me is not about comparing Ash with Bashar but what you said above, which is 100% correct.

It looks like you are the only poster who realized the meaning of the thread in a proper way.

To others,
The thread is not about demeaning Ash or promoting Bashar, it's a simple compatison between possibly the best and a mediocre. Forget the names, I think it still looks appalling.

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
bashar's stats won't be as bad, they'll be worse. remember the 9 world cup matches will weight 45% of his most recent 20. he averages what 12 in those matches at a sub 50 strike rate, IIRC.

Not really, despite his world cup debacle, Bashar averages 23.29 in his last 20 ODI innings which is almost 2 higher than his career averages.

Career averages (Bashar)

	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St
unfiltered	111	2168	78	21.68	0	1	1/31	142.00	0	26	0	Profile
filtered	20	396	78	23.29	0	-	-	-	-	8	0

On the other hand, Ashraful averages 24.57 in his last 20 ODI innings, only 1.28 higher than that of Bashar. I don't think any statistical Test will find the difference statistically significant.

Career averages (Ashraful)

	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St
unfiltered	113	2157	100	22.46	1	11	3/26	34.27	0	18	0	Profile
filtered	20	467	87	24.57	0	1	1/2	33.00	0	2	0

[pocha]

Originally Posted by Russell2k7
See the issue to me is not about comparing Ash with Bashar but what you said above, which is 100% correct.

Agree 100% with Russell. The issue is Ash (who is considered the best in BD) averages the same like a mediocre ODI player (HaBa), both of whom has played the same number of matches in over 8+ years. Period.

I dont care about BullSh!t talent and potential if that does n't translate to real numbers/performance. 100+ matches is good enough in any international sport to prove one's talent (if any).

[cricket_dorshok]

Why people do a lot of S. Rajesh. The inetention of Miraz was clear. How good our best compare to a mediocre.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Miraz
Not really, despite his world cup debacle, Bashar averages 23.29 in his last 20 ODI innings which is almost 2 higher than his career averages.



On the other hand, Ashraful averages 24.57 in his last 20 ODI innings, only 1.28 higher than that of Bashar. I don't think any statistical Test will find the difference statistically significant.

asides from the obvious disparity in quality (bashar's last 20 ODIs include many against zim, bermuda, canada, ireland) gotta look at the strike rates too. in fact, half those matches are probably against rank minnows (see previous apology to rajesh).

if bashing minnows is even a minor factor in figuring out who our best ODI batsman is, then SN would take the cake. but clearly he doesn't despite having a 50+ average against minnows.

as for SRs, suppose javed omar averages 40 in 10 innings at a SR of 45.50, that will actually be more detrimental to the team what aftab scoring 22.00 per innings at a SR of 100+

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Miraz
It looks like you are the only poster who realized the meaning of the thread in a proper way.

To others,
The thread is not about demeaning Ash or promoting Bashar, it's a simple compatison between possibly the best and a mediocre. Forget the names, I think it still looks appalling.

i fully understand. but at the same time, we're talking about a guy who has of late been averaging near 30 with 78 strike rate. clearly superior to anyone else we have not named aftab ahmed.

[Tokai]

Ash can win a ODI for us. He did and he will in the future.

Bashar never did and never will. That is the difference between the two.

Now, we all know Ash has a very poor average compared to his ability. and he really needs to work on it.

[Eshen]

Spitty nailed it well

Originally Posted by Spitfire_x86
Ashraful against Top 8, since 1st April 2005

Bashar against Top 8, since 1st April 2005

In a nutshell

      Ash    Bashar

Inns  (34)   (26) 



Avg   25.37  20.56

SR    78.60  57.04

100s  1      0

50s   6      2

Need I say more? Maybe you're bored or something, but anyone who has actually seen both Bashar and Ashraful play will know who's a better ODI player without bothering to look up any stats. Now if you're trying to remind us how all of our batsmen suck compared to International standards, you aren't telling anything new that we already don't know.

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
asides from the obvious disparity in quality (bashar's last 20 ODIs include many against zim, bermuda, canada, ireland) gotta look at the strike rates too. in fact, half those matches are probably against rank minnows (see previous apology to rajesh).

if bashing minnows is even a minor factor in figuring out who our best ODI batsman is, then SN would take the cake. but clearly he doesn't despite having a 50+ average against minnows.

as for SRs, suppose javed omar averages 40 in 10 innings at a SR of 45.50, that will actually be more detrimental to the team what aftab scoring 22.00 per innings at a SR of 100+

Again too much minnow talk.

I think pocha has summarized the thread well, please re-read his post.

Agree 100% with Russell. The issue is Ash (who is considered the best in BD) averages the same like a mediocre ODI player (HaBa), both of whom has played the same number of matches in over 8+ years. Period.

I dont care about BullSh!t talent and potential if that does n't translate to real numbers/performance. 100+ matches is good enough in any international sport to prove one's talent (if any).

And when Ash was averaging 30!!?? He is averaging a mere 24.57 is his last 20 ODI innings.

[RazabQ]

What's that Asaad, you apologizing for pulling an S Rajesh?? Never!!!! Explain yourself. Have you forgotten his arbitrary criteria for making Monty the second coming of Bedi? Or that Jayasuryia made the cut but Rafique pagla didn't?

[Zobair]

Can someone please list Bashar's match-winning innings in ODIs? Ash's?

[al Furqaan]

Again too much minnow talk.

Miraz bhai, this would be true if:

a) there were no minnows
b) if bangladesh being relagated to second tier status evoked no respose (read: resistance) from us

this is not true. minnows are real, they are generally weaker sides, which means their bowling is generally weaker, and hence batting against them is easier, which leads to inflated averages and strike rates.

And when Ash was averaging 30!!?? He is averaging a mere 24.57 is his last 20 ODI innings.

average of 27.41 at a strike rate of 78.80 from 2005 natwest series onwards (23.69 runs per innings). this becomes 25.60 average, 73.68 strike rate against top 8 sides (further his average runs per innings is 23.90, higher than if you include minnows!)

so the 27.41 average is near enough to 30 in the context of the bangladeshi cricket standard. and either way far closer than bashar has managed at any significant point in his career.

for HB:

his average is 20.56 at a strike rate 57.04 against top 8 sides. and if you do runs/innings he averages 19.77. thus we have a guy close to 30 vs a guy closer to 20.

the difference in average is 4.13 runs per innings, in favor of MA, at a SR which is fully 40% higher.

in conclusion, i fully agree and appreciate what the point of the thread was - to show that ash's stats are utterly unacceptable. however, i am also saying, not necessarily to you, Miraz bhai, that comparing the two batsmen is light comparing the heat of noon with the coolness of dusk.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by RazabQ
What's that Asaad, you apologizing for pulling an S Rajesh?? Never!!!! Explain yourself. Have you forgotten his arbitrary criteria for making Monty the second coming of Bedi? Or that Jayasuryia made the cut but Rafique pagla didn't?

hehe...touche.

however, jaya did take 300 wickets, a feat many legendary specialist bowlers haven't managed. does this mean he is a better SLA than 'raw freak'? a resounding "hell naw" is in order. but purely based on stats, bangladesh are minnows, and rafique most likely did not warrant the attention he did - though i have no clue how monty got on there.

i won't agree with everything Rajesh put out, but i guess passion often clounds the judgement.

[Miraz]

Originally Posted by Zobair
Can someone please list Bashar's match-winning innings in ODIs? Ash's?

Bashar has 4 not outs while Ashraful as 8 not outs.

Doing an al Furqaan here. Runs per innings - Ashraful 24.64 and Bashar 22.51.

Career averages

Ashraful in matches won	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St
unfiltered	2001-2008	113	2157	100	22.46	1	11	3/26	34.27	0	18	0	Profile
filtered	2004-2008	34	838	100	41.90	1	2	2/9	8.50	0	7	0

Bashar in matches won

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St
unfiltered	1995-2007	111	2168	78	21.68	0	1	1/31	142.00	0	26	0	Profile
filtered	2004-2007	29	653	78	34.36	0	-	-	-	-	11	0