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  #26  
Old August 9, 2007, 11:16 AM
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as usual a great detailed account from Puck!! well done bro!! i will need sum time to read it though....
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  #27  
Old August 9, 2007, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bengaliprince176
well. we now know what the effects of having Weed and other drugs made legal in Holland are having on people!!!
its not really an issue of drugs, but rather of some personal vendetta...there are great many BC members who would be smoking that same ganja, i'd wager.
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  #28  
Old August 9, 2007, 12:15 PM
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Puck,

The general impression I get from my reading (obviously nowhere near as extensive as yours) is that the displacement of the Mutazilite school by the Asharites is one of the major initial factors in the decline of Islamic philosophy and science. While the Asharites did not completely shut the door on ijtihad or isnad, works such as al-Ghazali's The Incoherence of the Philosophers and the unfavourable reception received by Ibn Rushd's rationalist response The Incoherence of the Incoherence led, I believe, to a lack of faith in purely open inquiry in philosophy and a gradual supplanting of open ijtihad by taqlid. While there were definitely innovations in enginering and technology during this period (12th to 14th Century), it seems that the stifling of basic free inquiry, so necessary for science as an enterprise, led to the subsequent decline. The Asharites also tended to have an almost Straussian perspective, allowing ijtihad and isnad among the ulema, but not among the lay public, which probably made them more palatable to rulers, but certainly did not encourage science and philosophical discussions among the masses.

Obviously, this is rather a simplification, and many other later factors (the ones you mention) played major roles in the rise of fundamentalism and the decline in the spirit of free inquiry, but I suspect this is where it began.

P.S. Do tell Pelham that many of us here on BC are looking forward to his getting better and rejoining us on this forum.
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  #29  
Old August 9, 2007, 01:40 PM
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Just look at him. The guy's a [] anyway.
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  #30  
Old August 9, 2007, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
...
these traditions shaped european islam to something more unique. this would later be felt rather differently by the offsprings of the original immigrants. detached from the social framework that shaped the islamic beliefs of the first generation in their villages, the new generation wanted to renew their islamic connection through any way they could. this, i am afraid had led to an extreme interpretaion of the scriptures by some sections of the islamic youth. they might well have some command of arabic, they might well be using the internet, and television stations like al-jazeera to get their facts, but ultimately, their readings and understanding of islam lacks the cultural cohesiveness and spirit of inclusion that had shaped the history of islam. that islam wasn't spread at the point of a sword but more through the mystical tradition of sufism is little understood by these fundamentalists or their opponent, geert wilders.
...
Very refreshing to see this part. Very true in my opinion.

If you dont mind me asking, what are you doing your PhD in? Thanks for this account, I'd studied much of it in a course on the modern middle east.

ps. Just read the bit on Mr.Pelham. My best wishes to him and hoping for his quick recovery.
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  #31  
Old August 9, 2007, 06:07 PM
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This is good actually. This would make sure many of the dutch parlament member read the Quran. If not the media would. if not the dutch normal population would. God works in misterious ways. No one can win this battle. Cause the Almighty is protecting it. We can just sit back and watch the circus.
ditto.
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  #32  
Old August 9, 2007, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Nocturnal
ditto.
yea that was well said by Tigers_Eye...plus it adds amusement to my life...i love islamophobes!
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  #33  
Old August 9, 2007, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaad
Puck,

The general impression I get from my reading (obviously nowhere near as extensive as yours) is that the displacement of the Mutazilite school by the Asharites is one of the major initial factors in the decline of Islamic philosophy and science. While the Asharites did not completely shut the door on ijtihad or isnad, works such as al-Ghazali's The Incoherence of the Philosophers and the unfavourable reception received by Ibn Rushd's rationalist response The Incoherence of the Incoherence led, I believe, to a lack of faith in purely open inquiry in philosophy and a gradual supplanting of open ijtihad by taqlid. While there were definitely innovations in enginering and technology during this period (12th to 14th Century), it seems that the stifling of basic free inquiry, so necessary for science as an enterprise, led to the subsequent decline. The Asharites also tended to have an almost Straussian perspective, allowing ijtihad and isnad among the ulema, but not among the lay public, which probably made them more palatable to rulers, but certainly did not encourage science and philosophical discussions among the masses.

Obviously, this is rather a simplification, and many other later factors (the ones you mention) played major roles in the rise of fundamentalism and the decline in the spirit of free inquiry, but I suspect this is where it began.

P.S. Do tell Pelham that many of us here on BC are looking forward to his getting better and rejoining us on this forum.
hi shaad, the inconsistency of inconsistencies (or 'incoherence' as the translation might have been in the versions you read) by averoes had little influence over the intellectual framework of hanbalite thinking or the arabian muslim world. it is a famous work because the later european philosophers were such ardent admirers of averoes.

i find this a sad reflection that the greatest of muslim thinker's ideas and works had come to us through the efforts of western philosophers and translators, rather than through the islamic intellectual schools. there has been some recent scholarship, particularly in the field of anthropology that suggested a different explanation for averoes having little influence on the islamic world.
it is thought that muslim world had splintered to such an extent by the time of averoes that a spanish muslim might not be able to influence the eastern corners of the muslim world. i don't particularly agree with it as the likes of al kindi's ideas had permeated all through the islamic world, so why would averoes suffer a different fate? i think the reason is much more due to the aristotelian influence on averoes which was a different way of interpreting metaphysics than the other three neo-platonic philosophers.

i can't really shed much light on displacement of the mutazilite school by ashari thought as yet because i am still working on a connection there! the political reasoning, propounded by orientalist montgomery watt is interesting and perhaps the most sensible one that i have come across as yet; as soon as the abbasids came to power, there was a political reason to adopt mutazilite thinking. between 783 and 833 and certainly no later than 850 ad, the abbsid caliph insisted that all qadis and ulema make a mutazilite proclamation that the holy book was created. after 850, the political need for this had ended as by that time the general polulation were totally obidient of the new caliphate.

there is also a misconception that the ashari school is based on just the works of al-ashari. this is not true. what we know of the ashari school did not gain the codified status a hundred years after the death of al-ashari. so the movement might be more rooted in kalam but the person it was named after had become a hanbalite by the end of his life.

my personal assessment is (not yet a conclusion as research still continues) that asahari and mutazilitie schools of thought continued to foster until after the 12th century within the remnant of other creeds and minor schools. if they hadn't continued, why would ibn taymiya be so bothered about it in that very century?

for a slightly alternative perspective to the world of 10 century and islamic notion of jihad acquire the following on inter-library loan -
John of Damascus on Islam
The Heresy of the Ishmaelites
Daniel J Sahas
E. J. Brill, Leinden, 1972
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  #34  
Old August 9, 2007, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
its not really an issue of drugs, but rather of some personal vendetta...there are great many BC members who would be smoking that same ganja, i'd wager.
It was sarcasm.

This isn't the first time that a holy book has been asked to be banned. In Hong Kong many months ago, there was a call to have the Bible rated R or banned due to it allegedly had high content of rape, incest, violence etc. But government didn't go along with it.
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  #35  
Old August 10, 2007, 12:05 AM
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Smile My revered Baba from Pabna says ....

We humans are parasites to this beautiful planet. Look at how we are killing/maiming it everyday.

I guess mother nature has found a great parasite killer - religion. It uses it occassionally to terminate some parasites but we are multiplying faster.

All these brokers of religion/god are actually helping the mother nature in a way - by making sure that enough hatred is planted amongst us for each other that we destroy each other one day and free this planet of it's parasitic burden. So i salute all priests/padres/mullahs/pundits and wish them good-luck.

Pabna Baba - where art thou when i need your gems of wisdom.
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  #36  
Old August 10, 2007, 05:24 AM
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.....Ah...and thus they focus on the Holy Quran again...
which in turn would make the curious ones to read the Quran...
which in turn would result in more and more people converting to Islam.

as they say... any publicity is a good publicity.
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  #37  
Old August 10, 2007, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydney
.....Ah...and thus they focus on the Holy Quran again...
which in turn would make the curious ones to read the Quran...
which in turn would result in more and more people converting to Islam.

as they say... any publicity is a good publicity.
does it automatically follow that reading the quran would lead to an instant conversion? i don't quite see the logic i am afraid.
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  #38  
Old August 10, 2007, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
does it automatically follow that reading the quran would lead to an instant conversion? i don't quite see the logic i am afraid.
At least the possibility increases if someone reads it properly.
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  #39  
Old August 10, 2007, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
does it automatically follow that reading the quran would lead to an instant conversion? i don't quite see the logic i am afraid.
yes sir!

read up about Chris Jackson (aka Mahmoud Abdul Rauf) former NBA player.
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  #40  
Old August 10, 2007, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
At least the possibility increases if someone reads it properly.
it does of course increase the possibility, however, the last part of your statement was the answer i was seeking! the crucial word being 'properly'.

conversion, in the modern sense of the word usually leads more through chance encounters with charismatic movements or personalities, and 'rarely' through the first encounter with a book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
yes sir!

read up about Chris Jackson (aka Mahmoud Abdul Rauf) former NBA player.
no sir!

a layman picking up the quran in a library, like any other book, would hardly find it the kind of read that would lead to conversion. it is spirituality that draws the individual to conversion. more often than not, that spirituality is encountered through chance events or physical meetings with charismatic muslims or christians.

one suffering from a lack of confidence or seeking answers after some misfortune, might well find guidance in the quran as well as the new testament. that is the nature of textual religion. most of them provide acceptable answers through a legitimation process. the text reinforces the freshly experienced spiritual encounter. texts work by fleshing out the cognitive process. that in itself eventually leads to conversion.

so the text alone is vacuous without the spiritual dimension of religiosity.
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  #41  
Old August 10, 2007, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraz
Really saddened by the news. Hope he will recover fully with time. My prayers are with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengaliprince176
that is sad... hope he recovers fast.
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Originally Posted by rubel_18
Hope he recovers quick Inshallah.
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Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Puck,
Next time you talk to Mr. Pelham, convey our prayers for him. May he get well ASAP.
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I was thinking about P Warner yesterday after seeing this thread. Puck, please tell him that we are wishing him all the best, and are looking forward to his posts.
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Puck,

P.S. Do tell Pelham that many of us here on BC are looking forward to his getting better and rejoining us on this forum.
i visited pelham this afternoon. he was in typically good spirits despite looking rather frail. he thanked you all for your kindness in remembering him and your prayers!
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  #42  
Old August 10, 2007, 12:18 PM
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thansk for the message Puck bro!!! its good to see mentally hes well and in good spirits, thats made my day, even more than Kumbles century!!!
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  #43  
Old August 10, 2007, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
no sir!

a layman picking up the quran in a library, like any other book, would hardly find it the kind of read that would lead to conversion. it is spirituality that draws the individual to conversion. more often than not, that spirituality is encountered through chance events or physical meetings with charismatic muslims or christians.
agreed about spirituality.

Quote:
one suffering from a lack of confidence or seeking answers after some misfortune, might well find guidance in the quran as well as the new testament. that is the nature of textual religion. most of them provide acceptable answers through a legitimation process. the text reinforces the freshly experienced spiritual encounter. texts work by fleshing out the cognitive process. that in itself eventually leads to conversion.
here i disagree. religious texts offer next to no help, especially without spirituality which you mentioned.

this is because the quran or NT read completely textually makes next to sense, generally speaking. the act of giving in the cause of God, by indigant folks, in order to reap manifild rewards is precisely the type of thing that appeals only the believer. religious texts are full of such believe-first-then-see type of things.

but spiritual introspection can be had from textual books even by uneducated ones is possible...hence the large number of conversions to islam post 911 by people walking down to Borders to pick up one of those mysterious, supposedly sedetious 'Ko-rans'
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  #44  
Old August 10, 2007, 12:21 PM
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Thanks Puck, glad to know Mr Pelham is in good spirit. I wish him a full and speedy recovery.
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  #45  
Old August 10, 2007, 03:29 PM
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who is this Mr Pelham character?
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  #46  
Old August 10, 2007, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
i visited pelham this afternoon. he was in typically good spirits despite looking rather frail. he thanked you all for your kindness in remembering him and your prayers!
I hope P Warner is doing well - I always enjoy his wise posts.
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  #47  
Old August 10, 2007, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck
does it automatically follow that reading the quran would lead to an instant conversion? i don't quite see the logic i am afraid.
No it does not mean an instant conversion, neither it means an absolute certain chance of converstion either.

But u failed to read between my lines.

Reading the Quran, getting to know a thing or two about what the book says is the first baby step which is far far better than obliviously ranting about something.

Among the hundred curious minds, let just say, who would read the Book, may be a handful of 5 might find it interesting and intriguing enough to seek for further knowledge and find out more about Islam and its proper way of life.

Now 5 is a better number than 0.

I can go on about it, but i hope you get what i mean.
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  #48  
Old August 11, 2007, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al Furqaan
agreed about spirituality.

here i disagree. religious texts offer next to no help, especially without spirituality which you mentioned.

this is exactly what i had said, you don't seem to either misread or misunderstood my commetns altogether. reading the quran on its own will have absolutely no effect on anyone without a spiritual dimension to it. your original comments had not mentioned any spiritual dimensions but just about reading the book.

this is because the quran or NT read completely textually makes next to sense, generally speaking. the act of giving in the cause of God, by indigant folks, in order to reap manifild rewards is precisely the type of thing that appeals only the believer. religious texts are full of such believe-first-then-see type of things.

but spiritual introspection can be had from textual books even by uneducated ones is possible...hence the large number of conversions to islam post 911 by people walking down to Borders to pick up one of those mysterious, supposedly sedetious 'Ko-rans'
in this case, the 911 had acted as a spiritual event. it certainly had been a spiritual event for the dumb suicide bombers and terrorist bombers since then.
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  #49  
Old August 11, 2007, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydney
No it does not mean an instant conversion, neither it means an absolute certain chance of converstion either.

But u failed to read between my lines.

Reading the Quran, getting to know a thing or two about what the book says is the first baby step which is far far better than obliviously ranting about something.

Among the hundred curious minds, let just say, who would read the Book, may be a handful of 5 might find it interesting and intriguing enough to seek for further knowledge and find out more about Islam and its proper way of life.

Now 5 is a better number than 0.

I can go on about it, but i hope you get what i mean.
your original post was a 'snap' comment with no logical basis to it. as i have painstakenly been stating over and over within this thread, without a spiritual basis the quran as a text will have little or no effect on a layman picking it up and reading just as a set of old stories and moral precepts.

the printed book that you might have in your possession is just that. it is a set of moral precepts printed on paper and in a press operated by a man or a man made machine. the tradiotionalist (by this i refer to all muslims who are intellectual descendents of al-ghazali), wahabi and salafi muslims, take that printed word to be divine revealations. it is divine to them because there is a broader spiritual element for cultural reasons that highlight the divinity of the words to them.

as for the 'curious minds' you mentioned, the dutch far right is not curious about islam.

the curious mind would be the spiritually unfulfilled lot who have actively felt the need for spirituality in their lives. this had left a vacuum. only this group of people might be picking up a copy of the quran or the new testament and interpret the tenets as a broader expression of their personal search. this search might lead to conversion.

in the context of the dutch far right or for that matter the far right islamophobes in general, they have as much chance of abhoring islam even more than liking it just by reading the quran. for these and for that matter any non islamic individual to even entertain the prospect of conversion would only lead through a spiritual encounter of sorts which could come through a life changing event or by encountering a charismatic muslim. as furqaan stated in his post, the text means absolutely nothing without the spiritual padding. this spiritual padding can't be bought from borders.

this is not a debate about the validity of religion or for that matter islam. it is about the religious experience, and how that might lead to conversion. sohel_NR mentioned in a recent thread in this forum about muslims who pray five times, go to pilgrimmage, keep a beard in order to buy the godliness, whilst still beating up their wife and kids, abusing their workers and engaging in every possible corrupt activity. prayers and haj wouldn't somehow nullify their sins against islam. islam isn't a case of commiting a crime with the right hand and giving alms to the poor with the other hand to balance that act of sin. islam is about peace and total submission to a higher power. this submission might get manifested through certain rituals that involve circumambulation of a little house in saudi arabia or proskynesis five times of day, or even month long fasting, however, the real submission to god is acting out the moral code. that moral code is peace. peace within oneself which in itself would lead to peace within the family, neighbourhood, community, country and world. without this element of spiritual peace all the rituals mean absolutely nothing at all.

islamophobia in itself is multidimensional. however, islamophobia started out not as a fear of islam but as a fear of the followers of islam - the muslims. this in itself lead to looking at the supposed causes of why certain muslims act the way they do. the conclusion was that these muslims' interpretation of the quran had made them act the way they did.

this hatred of the muslims is not just a muslim specific hatred but it is a general hatred for all things unknown and all that is new. this leads us to the question, why is it that islam is so feared in the west? it is feared because there is little knowledge of it in western society and what knowledge there is, comes from the ethnic minorities who had brought on centuries of tribal and village practices with them that appeared to be islamic on the surface. as mentioned by furqaan, an african muslim lady had given the impression that female circumcision is islamic! culturally, these practices appear as deviant to the westerner. they fear islam through the muslim who engages in a culturally loaded form of islam.

the other element is evangelising islam which is as bad to the secular european and westerner as is evangelising christianity. religion to them, in a broader sense is the 'sigh of the oppressed creature' that obscures the pain felt by the injustices of society by offering the promise of a better life beyond. in post-scarcity society, there is no need for that glorious afterlife since the present life is already very good. where they might value religion might be for its community spirit acted out through the communal act of worship. this they believe leads to a closer bond between individuals. if aspects of religion can bring people together, it is felt that it is a good thing.
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  #50  
Old August 11, 2007, 05:35 AM
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thansk for the message Puck bro!!! its good to see mentally hes well and in good spirits, thats made my day, even more than Kumbles century!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatebreed
Thanks Puck, glad to know Mr Pelham is in good spirit. I wish him a full and speedy recovery.
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Originally Posted by One World
I hope P Warner is doing well - I always enjoy his wise posts.
we spoke on the phone this morning as i am off to a conference in oxford that he had been looking forward to attenting for months. pelham enjoyed kumble's century as well and wished that he was able to sit up for a length of time to watch the highlights yesterday evening. shall pass on your kind words again when i speak to him on monday.
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