Why are Jews so powerful and Muslims so powerless?

[Electrequiem]

I found this to be quite an interesting article. It's a little dated (from two years ago) - but a good read, nonetheless.

Opinions? Discuss away!

http://www.weeklyblitz.net/394/why-a...s-so-powerless

Don't know if it was ever posted here before... if so, apologies, and feel free to merge the threads.

[Jadukor]

Originally Posted by Electrequiem
I found this to be quite an interesting article. It's a little dated (from two years ago) - but a good read, nonetheless.

Opinions? Discuss away!

http://www.weeklyblitz.net/394/why-a...s-so-powerless

Don't know if it was ever posted here before... if so, apologies, and feel free to merge the threads.

Really nice read. Totally agree with the assessment. Thanks for sharing

[Tigers_eye]

Lack of belief and lack of unity. Didn't read the article.

[Electrequiem]

Originally Posted by Tigers_eye
Lack of belief and lack of unity. Didn't read the article.

Absolute cop-out of an answer, this. I strongly recommend you read what this article is stating...

[Nasif]

Article is stating the obvious. It is a fact that the muslim countries top the list of most illiterate, impoverished, intolerant, and of course, most corrupt in the world.

The religion that started with "Read" has transformed itself into "don't read, just listen to your local mullah". The fall wasn't a gradual one, even though we like to think that way. Rather, it pretty much started after the first 2 centuries. The age of Islamic enlightenment started its fall around its 200 year mark, circa 900AD. Religious innovations and hearsay converted the progressive Islamic movement into a static/stale parroting religion. It is not a coincidence that the first hadith book appears during this time frame (~846AD), which had its own part to play in the demise of the progressive movement. Knowledge, enlightenment, science, and the universe itself took a back seat while benefits of being religiously bearded was researched.

The result is of course is today! Nothing to be surprised.

Education, knowledge and enlightenment is the only way out. Its already late.

[roman]

Great read. Pen is mightier than sword. Can't deny it

[ammark]

Just a thought (rant):

Muslims around the world often talk about 'ijma' for making decisions or following something. But when was the last time the ummah reached a 'consensus' on ANYTHING? To desire for this consensus is to cop out - 1 billion Muslims have a billion different opinions.

[bujhee kom]

It's very clear, clear as crystal...

The islamic renaissance (spell!) was when? Mid 8th Century AD to 13th Century, why? Due to huge and massive progress in

1. Art
2. Architecture
3. Literature
5. Philosophy
6. Engineering
7. Science
8. Medicine
9. Astronomy
10. Politics and
11. International Diplomacy
12. International Trade

in another words Islam and the Islamic society of North Afrika, Yemens and the Near East was leading the world, mankind in knowledge gathering, knowledge seekin, in the ventures of searching for knowledge during those time.

Then the fall came and rose another group of people to the higher dome, the European Christian nations.

And today, why the Jews so Powerful and Muslims so powerless? I can say why Israel so powerful and all these Muslim countries combined so weak and powerless. The support of the U.S. and the British and the West for Israel, I know it all. Let's move on to another very importante/critical, on your face issue aout these two entities, Israel and the Muslim countries:

I have seen Israel/Tel Aviv from a very close context. And also several Arab States.
Israel does not, did not live and operate with sweet cherries in their mouth, they gather all their resources together and distribute it under a very clear/organized high command and properly distribute it around in a simultanious/synchronized mission/operation system just so that they can get the MOST maximum OUTPUT from the mission, they have to get 100+% success, that's it. In the Six Day War in 1967, in the Sinai Desert, in Egypt, that's what they did and still do. This same operation method.practice is used in the urban, City, governmental/agency level to operate water swerage *(spell) management, treatement all the facilty, power/elctricity and agriculture as well. They have a lot of massive limitations, especially the nature is very dry and cruel and a lot of geographical disadvantages, thus they struggle but they struggle together as a Commune like state of mind, as they know if they do not look out for each other, they have very few friends in the outside their borders.

This brings me to the ideas and the way of life of the Muslims that I KNOW. Electriquiem dost, you do not have to go to far, just look around right here in BC, how many post, youtube links, lectures of CRAP and vomits, arguments surface up on ojne thing - SEPARATION and segregation, a constant search for I am better than you and how to establish it.....never to find ten Threads on Islamic Influence on Modern Architecture, or on the history of The Islamic Geometric Pattern and how for a thousand years it is influencing the non-islamic art movement, or stories and critical analysis of the thousand years of Mosque Design, the House for worshiping our Creator! Or Islamic writing and Poetry and Philosophy on deeper humanity, everything I find is evangelical, which have ZERO value to me and in my heart, I do not need to hear stuffs that I have been hearing since day one and do not do nothing for my soul.

Islamic society for the past century not only going through it's dark age but on a constant battle of slipping down, we have way too many people, it's hard to encourage and nurture an overly massive amount of unorganized people as the process is very hard, bad apples get in, bad teaching, hateful blind teaching slips in, as there are more people, larger poverty, desperaration, lost, young souls will wonder and fall victim to scumbags who will teahc them, guide them to wrong-unhealthy-uncompassionate activity. Now this I am saying mainly Islam in Souith Asia, like Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malyasia(spell) where population is on the burst and poverty is very high issue.

For North Afrikan Islamic countries, poverty and desperation is an issue, but they still have a lot less people, they have rich own heritage, something to fall back on to grow forward, and also they are a lot less poverty striken compared to my own country, thus they have advantage there. About the Middle-Eastern Islamic countries, teh less I say, the better it is, then there is Iran, and that is a slightly different case. I am sorry...I am losing my chain of thought here a bit Electriquiem, I was coming and going a little bit from my table heheheh....

Ohh yes, I remember, you see the two largest and almost monopoly religions that occupy the most of the planet are Christianity (including Catholics and all Protestants) and Islam (including us all, Sunnis, Shaites and the others)...There are like 60-70 Islamic countries in the world, that's more than half the world, the whole Central Asia (All the ex-soviet), parts of China, India, the Sub-continent, South Asia, the middle-east, the Near East, North Afrika, Parts of East Afrika, the Balkans, parts of East Europe...that's huge...we are diversed, in the Middle East, the Middle Easterners are traditionally rich and wealthy and the rest of the Muslim world I see a lot of poverty there, along with a mixture of both, but higher poverty, in the sub-continent and in the eastern part of Afrika it's much higher poverty....Then I notice, we are a wasteful group, from the middle-east to the sub-continent (for those of us, who have), I find we practice over indulgence instead of saving it and sharing it with the community, country or nation. Almost Nobody in our coutry/Bangladesh wants to pay full proper TAX. So there you go, another major problem. I do Not know how an Israeli pay taxes or I am not a child, I know they have crooks and theives in ISrael who every chance gets will screw the nation and the coutry or his people too, BUT it is my FEELING from my years of ovbservations that this is where we a lot of the Muslims/Islamic nations hurt our own selves and Israel is doing better.

[simon]

eishob power duniya y dekha, porokaal e dekhaya dimu ne.

[kalpurush]

Originally Posted by simon
eishob power duniya y dekha, porokaal e dekhaya dimu ne.

Ha! Ha!! Ha!!!

[PoorFan]

BK, keep them coming, you always have a nice way making sense in your post.

[bujhee kom]

Originally Posted by PoorFan
BK, keep them coming, you always have a nice way making sense in your post.

Thank you dear boro bhaiya Poorfan da! I much much appreciate it....I will add more to this, I have more to say on this and the related matter.

[Rifat]

Electrequiem bhai, please check your PM, I want to upload some PDF files either here or in your PM or both.

[Rifat]

In case anyone is Interested: Dr. Bilal Phillips take on this topic:

Foundations of Islaamic Culture part1

Foundations of Islaamic Culture part2

Foundations of Islaamic Culture part3

Foundations of Islaamic Culture part4

let me know if the link doesn't work...

[Sohel]

[RANT=BAL.KAFFIR.RAW.CIA.MOSSAD] 1. Scholarship, Creativity, Tolerance and Empowering Charity: Supreme cultural and religious emphasis on higher education including the creative arts. The ability to produce genuinely erudite scholars. The ability to discern real scholarship from polemics. The ability to tolerate scholarship outside of traditional scholarly methodologies. Organized Jewish charities we see, charities designed to help others (not just "their own") help themselves, are direct fruits of that kind of enlightened scholarship never divorced from the Abrahamic values they came from.

2. Cosmopolitanism: The ability to assimilate other cultures while maintaining and enhancing their own, often driven by the interest to find the common human denominator in other groups and subsequently celebrating, rather than fearing diversity. The ability to get involved in social justice issues even when that can scapegoat them as a community of perennial outsiders.

3. Sense of Humor: The uncanny ability to see the funny side of things. Self deprecating humor keeping xenophobia and the ego in perpetual check, can in fact strengthen Tikhva (Taqwa in Arabic).

That being said, things are way tougher for "Muslims". Being a Muslim, IMHO, is a deeply personal, spiritual state of being that cannot and must not be conflated with one's ethnocultural and political identity, no matter how Islamicate culture and Islamic values have influenced that identity, because ultimately the divine and the worldly are mutually exclusive no matter how symbiotic the connection between the two within the human heart. Apples and Oranges really.

The contemporary Islamist, typically shallow definition of Tawhid -- often concocted to create conflation, confusion and misguidance to propagate a purely political agenda based on religious supremacy, sectarianism and discord -- cannot bypass the attribute of GOD as Al Samad, or the Divine First Cause Who is independent of all things while all things are dependent on Him as His creation, and call itself "Islamic" in light of all of its accepted credal formulas.

A Muslim is at once a Muslim amongst a billion, and part of a particular homogeneous or heterogeneous enthnocultural group engaged in a wide variety of sociopolitical activities, which may or may not be influenced or guided by his or her personal understanding of GOD's commandments and suggestions, in a religion that CLEARLY prohibits imposition and coercion in order to compel others to follow suit, and also CLEARLY prohibits the assignment of partners, proxies and by extension political movements seek to attain control over the state apparatus, impose coercive laws because they've given themselves the PROHIBITED right to speak and exercise power, and dispense judgment on His behalf.

The Jewish people on the other hand, are just a few million strong, and are at once a religious as well an ethnocultural entity despite the remarkable diversity brought upon by exile and the diaspora over the past couple of thousand years.

So I feel a far better question to pose would be "why Jews are more powerful than Arabs (or Banglalis or the Chinese for that matter)?" in a particular place than the question being posed here. [/RANT]

[al Furqaan]

I'm sure each of the 15 posts above have highlighted the correct reasons. But I'll try a more a novel approach before I decide to inevitably reiterate something someone else has already said.

Populations. Jews 15 million, Muslims 1.5 billion. Power is something that must be partitioned to the few and not to the masses. Which is why concepts such as "democracy" are inherently paradoxical. If everyone has power, how much power do you have? If England are the #1 Test side in the world, but they're only as good as Zimbabwe, are they any good?

If the average Muslim was to have as much "power" as the average Jew...integrated over their larger population the total power would be more power than exists on Earth!

In other words its not physically possible!

[ammark]

"Power resides where men believe it resides. Its a trick, a shadow on a wall. Even, a small man can cast a very long shadow"

- Varys, Game of Thrones, by GRR Martin

[Sohel]

Originally Posted by ammark
"Power resides where men believe it resides. Its a trick, a shadow on a wall. Even, a small man can cast a very long shadow"

- Varys, Game of Thrones, by GRR Martin

"Faowar rishaid in mai ophish in Mirpur, Abohanir Mat'h end Afar kole. It ij kanekshon end mani. Ibhen e ismol man like mi ken hebh e bheri bheri long end garthi ..."

-Loitta Kemal, Memo ar Memory, by Sohel N. Rahman

[mufi_02]

What is the definition of this so called "power"?

I will echo Assad bhai's observation (post#16). The Jews traditionally have a strong sense of community. Their population is small enough to have that commune feeling while Muslims are much more diverse. Jews can be divided into Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi and a small minority of Ethiopian. That's why starting from Zionism they were able to retain that and centuries of oppression Holocaust made the feeling only stronger. Muslims can be from the Caucus to the Southern Africa, Morocco to Indonesia.

This similar problem was momentarily faced by Jewish community when the Ethiopians started to migrate to Israel. In the beginning, they were not considered "Jewish" enough and was not able to donate blood to other Jews. There were many violent riots in the streets. After much struggle and government intervention things got better and now they live in comparatively better condition.

Today, there are many to cry for Muslims, but how many are there to cry for Islam? During Juma Khutbah, Khateeb will add one or two line about the welfare of the Muslims and we all say Ameen. But how many of us pray Tahajjud and cry for Islam. During the last third of the night, Allah comes down to 1st heaven and asks His slave to ask from Him. I never ask Him to improve the condition of the 1.5 Billion Muslims and so how can I expect things to get better.

Going back to the initial question, "power" ultimately resides with Allah. He is the Most Powerful. It's not like Allah has more power and others have some. Allah has all the power. This is Tawheed, this is believing in the Oneness of Allah. Now if we don't ask from the All Powerful then things will never get better. Some say we lack education, some creative thinking. But before anything, we have to turn to Allah first. Yes, it's that simple. We have to change ourselves and beg from Allah. Even with all the disobedience, He is showering us with so many mercies. Now, if we turn to Him, imagine how much more bounties he will give us.

[al Furqaan]

Now for an alternate explanation:

There is also the aspect that of the world's 15 million Jews...5 million live in US, another few million live in Europe/Russia, and 7 million or so live in Israel - all are high HDI regions. That leaves a tiny proportion in the developing regions like Asia, Middle East, Africa, and Latin America. Thus it is not surprising that the average Jew has a higher standard of life than the average Muslim - 98% of whom live in developing regions. Its like going to the homeless shelter and expecting to find the same number of MENSA members as an Ivy League class reunion.

Even Israel itself is a virtual offshoot of Europe. Majority of Israelis are descended from European Jews who immigrated to the Holy Land, not indigenous Palestinian Jews, or even Jews from Iran, Morocco, etc.

European Jews being in Europe have been able to benefit from the 400 years of Renaissance enlightenment that the region went through that gave rise to the Scientific Revolution which then gave rise to the Industrial Revolution which in turn gave us the current Technological Revolution. And the Renaissance itself was the result of Dark Age Europe battling and ultimately cross-pollinating with Golden Age Islam.

So it isn't Jewishness which creates "power" but rather the unique circumstance the Jews came from. Jews were in Europe during the Dark Ages and Europe was no less Darker at that time.

If the majority of the Muslim world spends 400 years in the West (demographically impossible, btw) and survives their own Holocaust, then perhaps Muslim will be then where Jews are today.

[Jadukor]

It's not about who started where but more about what they chose to do with the time, resources available from that position

[bujhee kom]

Yeah, very top notch posts coming through, sohel da, Jadukor da, Dr. Alfurqaan, Mufi, Rifat!!!

I would also like too add a few things here....

Israel is still just one country, and yes the Jewish lobby is very powerful in the U.S. Britain and other parts of Europe, there are still 70 something Islamic faith countries....another way to see the picture would be (not to take away any of the responsibility from us moslems from ever improving ourselves, and constantly got to kick our own selves) Islam and the existance of Islam from just this sheer mass, population, political advantages, geography makes the Islamic counties a far more powerful entity than any Jewish infrastructures altogether. It is a very uneven match. It is just a thought.

But bhais and apus, here New York City, Jews and Moslems are cousins, a know a lot of jewish folks who call Islam closest tpo their faith and cherish the common-binding between these two mass cultures. These are mostly liberal jews, but still someone who is active in practising their religion, that types. Hesidic and other very orthodox jewish groups I often found very insular (spell), interestingly they often remind me of many of my relatives back hoome from the village, the way they pray etc.

But I think both moslems and jewish folks in general take their religions very seriously and are very observant and pious....a lot of the practices and concepts are also very similar between these two people. Jewish folks brought bagels to NYC from Egypt!! The moslem priests say if you can't find halal in your locality go find some Kosher food and eat it!!

Hasidik Jewish folks speak in Yiddish or old german or something between themselves, I cannot understand, they, especially the older men always seem very angry and irritated. But in Israel, most Israelis have another European, U.S. Canadian or other passport, beacuse their mother or father will be from those countries like Alfurqaan said.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Jadukor
It's not about who started where but more about what they chose to do with the time, resources available from that position

What resources do today's Muslims have?

The article above says Muslims are backwards because they don't have access to education [very true]. You've agreed with the article above, which seems to mean that you are saying Muslims are failing to use educational institutions which they don't have! You cannot fail to use something you don't have.

It all comes down, today, to money. Harvard is the most presitigous university in the world despite what anyone else says...Harvard is Harvard. Its also not surprising that Harvard has the largest endownment of any school on earth. Give Harvard North-South's funding and see what you end up with.

The article mentions Albert Einstein...imagine Einstein was working out of a Dhaka patent office and not in Switzerland. Imagine he was being funded as a researcher in Bangladesh. Would he have been able to observe the photoelectric effect? And if he couldn't observe it, could he have explained it? Now Switzerland in 1905 was far better equipped for such things than Dhaka was, just as it is today.

Think about all our subcontinental high achievers...Salaam, Bose, Chandreskhar...most if not all of them had European affiliations. In fact, according to Wikipedia...Bose who seems to have done his work in Dhaka/Calcutta was only recognized after Einstein vouched for him. This might indicate that while it is possible to achieve brilliance from the developing world, the world of academia may have bias towards work from Western sources!

Though not accepted at once for publication, he sent the article directly to Albert Einstein in Germany. Einstein, recognizing the importance of the paper, translated it into German himself and submitted it on Bose's behalf to the prestigious Zeitschrift für Physik. As a result of this recognition, Bose was able to work for two years in European X-ray and crystallography laboratories, during which he worked with Louis de Broglie, Marie Curie, and Einstein.

Furthermore, much in the realm of theoretical science is due to chance and happenstance. Science almost always begins with the realization of a problem, paradox, or dilemma. It is solved via emperical data collection and observation. That is not possible without time, and most importantly money - which third world countries do not have.

Most if not all of today's scientific achievements have come through "luck" or sheer surprise. This is often because a lot things in physics and therefore chemistry, do not make intuitive sense; often the scientists themselves have deep reservations about their own findings. Examples include scientists creating the idea of an "ether" that permeates the universe in order to explain the constant speed of light. The discovery of the expanding nature of the universe due to the Doppler effect and surrounding galaxies appearing to be red-shifted. These were all "accidental" discoveries...a similar thing happened to Bose as well:

While presenting a lecture[20] at the University of Dhaka on the theory of radiation and the ultraviolet catastrophe, Bose intended to show his students that the contemporary theory was inadequate, because it predicted results not in accordance with experimental results. During this lecture, Bose committed an error in applying the theory, which unexpectedly gave a prediction that agreed with the experiment.

The error was a simple mistake—similar to arguing that flipping two fair coins will produce two heads one-third of the time—that would appear obviously wrong to anyone with a basic understanding of statistics. However, the results it predicted agreed with experiment, and Bose realized it might not be a mistake after all.

What this means is that Einstein himself wasn't born knowing relativity, just as Washington wasn't born President. There were things Einstein didn't understand and his quest uncovered the secrets that we know so well today. However, he could have been at a government laboratory in Mogadishu and he most likely would have discovered diddly.

As a side note to drive this point home...a very good friend of mine - inactive BC member, tigerpower - works in the field of nanotechnology and has the very serious ambition of winning a Nobel prize for himself. He and I both agreed that it is less a matter of being the smartest genius in your field and more a matter of simply be smart enough to be at "the right place at the right time." Certainly, I'm not smart enough for that, but he might just be. The conception that Nobel laureates are superhuman geniuses is a gross hyperexegeration, IMO. Even Eisntein said that it wasn't something ultra-human but rather his curiosity that set him apart.

The real reason, is the opportunities people have and those opportunities come from the society and system they are from. The US will never produce a bowler of the quality of Wasim Akram, not because they are incapable, but because they don't have the infrastructure to do so. Likewise, Jews have been around for the last 5,000 years but they have only been head and shoulders above the academic community for the last few centuries, and have only been controlling US and global policy for the last 60 years.

Muhammad Yunus has stated that the motivation for his work on the Grameen Bank was the realization that poor people are not less capable people because they are less capable, but because they are poor.

[Tigers_eye]

Originally Posted by Electrequiem
Absolute cop-out of an answer, this. I strongly recommend you read what this article is stating...

Thanks for your recommendation. I will if I can make some time for it.

There is no alternative of gaining knowledge. That doesn't mean one must have to have the academic knowledge. I wonder what was literacy percentage of the beduins of Arabs? Can anyone guess? I still stick to my first answer.

[Jadukor]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
What resources do today's Muslims have?

How about oil? We might have the excuse of poverty but what excuse do the oil rich arab countries have?

The article points to Knowledge generation, diffusion and application where we are still falling behind. While you can argue about the indicators used, the original point of us falling behind on education still remains the same. Don't make this an east vs west debate. We have had many great minds even from our own poverty stricken region but the question is how many of them are muslim? This is more about education in Islamic societies vs non islamic societies. Even in Asia the scenario is the same. A quick look at the standard of universities, scholars, economies, medical facilities would confirm that belief. You can argue many countries did not have a favorable history (wars,oppression, poverty etc) but how long can that still be an excuse?

Did Hadith start the decline of Islamic societies? I fully agree with Nasif that it played a part. When societies start to believe earthly matters are less important than "Akhiraat" why would people push harder in life? The problem is compounded when societies also believe in social and legal inequalities when it comes to women. The day Myanmar starts laughing at our faces would probably be the day we stop making excuses and admit that it is still and has always been our choices and actions that shapes our future.