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  #101  
Old May 4, 2012, 04:02 PM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roman
I came across this great thead. Please take a look..

http://www.banglacricket.com/alochon...ghlight=hadith
Woohooo, this is serious stuff!!!

I had searched for related threads in FC, but somehow didn't come across this one. Thanks.
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  #102  
Old May 4, 2012, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banglatiger84
I personally feel many ahadith formpart of what we need to know in Islam, but i somehow dont elevate ahadith to the level of Quran. There are some Muslims who believe that to be a Muslim, you have to believe in all sahih ahadith as being infallible. They point to the fact that Imams compiled them with a lot of effort and screening, but what they overlook is that this compilation was done many years after the Prophets time, and that Allah swt protected the Quran alone. Surely if ahadith were meant to be as important as the Quran, there would have been a compilation of them during or just after the Prophet's time?

I am a mere human being and dont have the right to blindly label ahadith as authentic or false, all I know is Quran is the only protected book for Muslims
And Allah knows best


I might disagree with you on few matters, but I got to admit, this is one of the most sensible post in this thread. Yes, Allah has promised the protection of Quran. I am not aware of such promises regarding Hadith.

I am also another mere human being and might have even less knowledge than you about Deen. So I won't even dare calling this group wrong and that group right. At the end of the day, I want to follow the right and straight path. I have no right to judge others and Allah alone is the best judge. I just pray for all of us. If I am on the wrong track, I sincerely pray to Allah swt to put me and all others on the right path. Ameen
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  #103  
Old May 5, 2012, 01:15 AM
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This thread is starting to confuse me now...
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  #104  
Old May 5, 2012, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasif
And for those who love to use Hadith, here is a hadith where Muhammad ordered you not to write hadith, i.e. anything other than Quran. None can guide other than God.

Muslim 42:7147
Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Allah's Messenger said: Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur'an, he should efface that, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me-and Hammam said: I think he also said: "deliberately"-he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire.

(Re-quoting from my earlier post)
That is indeed an interesting Hadith to ponder for those into the Hadith as a somewhat divine source. Not only is it consistent with the Quran, it should also explain why what we understand to be the Hadith today were not compiled DURING Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) lifetime. Also they (those into the Hadith as a somewhat divine source) should remember that the REPORTED sayings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) compiled centuries after his death are not necessarily the ACTUAL sayings themselves, and not all actual sayings are beyond fallacy. We see GOD admonishing His beloved Prophet (PBUH) in the Quran. Therefore, not buying into the Hadith as a somewhat divine source, is by no means disrespecting the Prophet (PBUH) as the Messenger of GOD. It is important to understand that and differentiate when called for.

The agreement amongst duly qualified scholars of the Madhabs is similarly not infallible. BUT this agreement or Ijma is of paramount importance in Islam because of its proof in the Quran (4:115)* and secondly, because the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), sent as GOD's mercy to all of mankind and the finest example for Muslims to follow, is reported to have said that his "community" will always have diverse opinions but will never agree on an error.

The role of Rightly Guided and duly qualified scholars in that community is critical to contemplate here. While those of us who call themselves "Muslim" may fall into various diseases of the heart, group mentality, ignorance and misguidance due to other psycho-sociological vulnerabilities, the duly qualified scholars are less likely to succumb to those errors. The Rightly Guided, by definition, even less so. We must also remember that GOD Himself in the Quran (3:18)** blesses and ranks those "learned who stand on justice" in our midst, the ones only He wills as such, just below His Angels (PBUT).

Quote:
*"And whoever is hostile to the messenger after the guidance has been clarified to him, and he follows other than the path of the believers; We will grant him what he has sought and deliver him to Hell; what a miserable destination." (Quran 4:115)

**"God bears witness that there is no god except He, as do the angels, and those with knowledge, He is standing with justice. There is no GOD except He, the Noble, the Wise." (Quran 3:18)
"Rightly Guided Scholars" are guided by GOD alone as per His divine will and may come from outside the Madhabs also. Madhabs in all of their incredible diversity definitely add immense scholarly discipline and context to such scholarship but are fallible nonetheless. However, that does not negate the importance of the deep erudition and diverse opinion of scholars -- who should not be lumped together as a single, monolithic entity -- coming from an unbroken link of Madhabi scholarship, and the positive role much of that scholarship can play in making us better submitters. Their human, other than divine scholarship, alongside any Hadith consistent with the Quran can play a positive part in our submission and should not be discarded wholesale, but cannot be assigned any sort of "partnership" with the Speech of GOD. Why? Because GOD says so!

We must believe that as the holy Prophet of GOD, Muhammad (PBUH) would not have advocated or propagated anything contrary to the Speech of GOD, and the possibility of conflating the human utterances of His Messenger (fallible because he is human) and the divine nature of the Quran (infallible as the Speech of GOD). Maybe that is why his utterances were not allowed to be written down not only during his lifetime, but for an additional couple of centuries as well, despite the presence of highly learned and literate men and women amongst his companions. Some of us believe the Prophet (PBUH) to be a highly literate gentile (Ummi or non-Jew and non-Christian), but that is another topic altogether.
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Last edited by Sohel; May 6, 2012 at 03:00 AM..
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  #105  
Old May 5, 2012, 04:16 AM
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BANFAN BANFAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
There aren't any Saheeh hadeeth that contradict the qur'an. but if they do, we reject them.

I am by no means a Hadith Scholar or even a Qur'an scholar, if I have any questions regarding these issues, i take it to them if i come across something quite startling(people who dedicated their lives to the study of Islam).

................
Rifat bro... You can follow any book of this world on that principle/method. Even bible has verses consistent with Quran. So, there is no problem if you can rigidly maintain it.

Since this process isn't practical, that's why, let's go back to the original book. There is a myth about Quran, that Quran is difficult to understand and it's in Arabic, so that makes it more difficult....firstly there are several verses in Quran which says, "I have made it easy for you to understand, so that you can read, understand and follow it" and just think, who else can make things easier than Allah?

Secondly, All Hadith are also written in Arabic... We are following translations. So what's the point of not following the Quran, because it's in Arabic? Well if you aren't comfortable with that, learn Arabic, didn't we all learn multiple languages?

So, if you know and follow the Quran, then every other book of this world becomes easy for you to understand, what's wrong in there and what's in line with Quran.

Allah has given you one entire life time to understand and submit to him. Give 5/more years to Quran alone. Instead of blindly believing scholars. Most will say things without own understanding, but on what his guru taught him. No scholar will answer for you on the last day and you don't know who is right and who is wrong. Listen to your conscious because the guidance of Allah comes through your own conscious, when you persevere for it; if He wills.
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  #106  
Old May 5, 2012, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isnaad
This thread is starting to confuse me now...
Keep the Isnaad intact, don't lose hope.
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  #107  
Old May 5, 2012, 05:25 AM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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''Theose who listen to the word*, and follow the best in it. These are the ones whom Allah has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.'' [39:18]

*if meant any word, then it would mean one listens to all that is said and accepts the best therein.
*if meant THE Word (of Allah), then it would mean one examines all the permissible actions in a situation, and does the noblest of them.

- commentary of Yusuf Ali, who prefers the 2nd version but the possibility of the first remains.

Last edited by Purbasha T; May 5, 2012 at 04:02 PM..
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  #108  
Old May 5, 2012, 10:50 AM
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Purbasha, but what does it mean to you is what counts...not Yusuf Ali. There is danger in commentary.
Time and Space remember.
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  #109  
Old May 5, 2012, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsayeed
Purbasha, but what does it mean to you is what counts...not Yusuf Ali. There is danger in commentary.
Time and Space remember.
Well, I'm a bit cautious in this regard as I don't wanna be guilty of the same crime that I accuse others of, which is taking verses out of context and presenting to suit one's own purpose.
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  #110  
Old May 5, 2012, 07:57 PM
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Sohel NR,

thank you for your post. I understand the point of View. Alhamdulillah!

Nasif,

I understand your point of view too but I would disagree with this statement:

Quote:
Muhammad never received anything other than the Quran. By definition Quran is what was inspired to Muhammad from God. If there were additional revelations, it would have been part of Quran as well.
Please give me time to do my research, I will get back to you sir! I know the proof for my disagreement exists in Qur'an! right now, I still have long ways to go...

From the top of my mind, I can talk about dreams of Prophet(SalAllahu A'laihe Sallam) as wahi(revelation) and what about the night of Ascension(isra ul Mi'raaj) but then again to fully support my claim i need to research and cite my sources and that can take a while so please be patient with me Sir .

related topic: On another Thread, I promised "Sufism" Bro that i would quote all my evidence with Ahadith sources..that thread got locked...so I will (re) post what i posted on that thread with Proper Evidence.

at the end of the Day, I am accountable in front of Allah, I am accountable in front of Allah for the things that come out of my mouth and keyboard. I must fulfill all my promises... please be Patient with me

Salaam, Rifat
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  #111  
Old May 7, 2012, 04:47 AM
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Thank you Rifat. I've always appreciated your good faith ability to engage in civil conversation with those who do not agree with you on certain matters. Some of the Takfiri fanatics, zealots and terrorism apologists with monumental egos in this forum, guys who've made themselves and their gurus virtual partners with GOD by being absolute masters of GOD's truth, have a lot to learn from you when it comes to real Taqwa and Adab.

That being said, the Quran being the fully detailed, divine revelation is totally unambiguous*. The Quran describes itself as the final revelation in a series of revelations. Those earlier revelations are at once confirmed and superseded by the Quran. Superseded when certain parts of those earlier revelations specifically abrogated when they are in the Quran. The Hadith and subsequent scholarship, as important and valuable as they may be on many occasions, are not a part of divine revelation, period. To say that is to directly contradict the Speech of GOD our Lord. GOD calls on His true believers to make sure not to fall in the trap of idol-worship by following the words of some scholars instead of the Speech of GOD. See Quran 9:31

*See Quran 6:114, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111. Also see Quran 18:109.
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  #112  
Old May 7, 2012, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sohel NR
Thank you Rifat. I've always appreciated your good faith ability to engage in civil conversation with those who do not agree with you on certain matters. Some of the Takfiri fanatics, zealots and terrorism apologists with monumental egos in this forum, guys who've made themselves and their gurus virtual partners with GOD by being absolute masters of GOD's truth, have a lot to learn from you when it comes to real Taqwa and Adab.

That being said, the Quran being the fully detailed, divine revelation is totally unambiguous*. The Quran describes itself as the final revelation in a series of revelations. Those earlier revelations are at once confirmed and superseded by the Quran. Superseded when certain parts of those earlier revelations specifically abrogated when they are in the Quran. The Hadith and subsequent scholarship, as important and valuable as they may be on many occasions, are not a part of divine revelation, period. To say that is to directly contradict the Speech of GOD our Lord. GOD calls on His true believers to make sure not to fall in the trap of idol-worship by following the words of some scholars instead of the Speech of GOD. See Quran 9:31

*See Quran 6:114, 7:52, 11:1, 41:3, 10:37 and 12:111. Also see Quran 18:109.
again JazakAllah khairan(may Allah reward you with good) for your kind words.

yes, The Hadith is not divine revelation. Qur'an is and always has been(and will be) the primary source of knowledge and guidance in Islam.

and I also agree that many Scholars(well known and well-respected) many times give questionable fatwa, we should respect them for their scholarship but their words will never ever be taken as absolute truth or to that level like the Qur'an. They are human too...

In my opinion, one of the problems in this ummah is that sometimes certain opinions of certain scholars are taken as absolute truth while the central message of Qur'an is put on the side....but this is another topic!

with that being said, The Historical Context of the ahadith cannot be neglected when it comes to understanding Qur'an. understanding the Life of the Messenger(may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) and his righteous companions(may Allah's peace be upon them) helps us understand the development of Islam and how Allah guided the believers from being the weakest -> Strongest through patience, sacrifice and heavy trials. Those of us who respect the Ahadith(Sayings of the Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam), respect the messenger to the level of emulating his noble character and his message, never claimed to equate it with The Qur'an or anything close to it, we just entirely disagree with the notion they are to be rejected altogether or it has absolutely no role in Islam. That's the KEY difference!
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  #113  
Old May 7, 2012, 08:00 AM
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Here was my original post in "Progressive Muslims thread":

Quote:
I accept Everything Allah(His glorious majesty) has revealed to Prophet Mohammad(May Allah's peace and Blessings be upon him) and the words Prophet Mohammad(May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) has uttered with his own mouth without any question. I, Alhamdulillah! am very confident in accepting all commands from Allah! This includes:

Things I myself do not understand.
Things that need furthur reflection/research.
Things I understand, accept but due to my weak faith I make mistakes upon/fall short of the Islamic standard.
Things that other people will heavily criticize me! Allah knows what we reveal and what we conceal in our hearts! it is not for us to judge who is a true believer and who is not because indeed Allah is the most conclusive of all judges!

Allah makes it very very clear in the Qur'an that the role of his creations(Human beings and Jinns) is nothing but to worship him. The Qur'an puts heavy emphasis on the life of the herafter since the duration of this very short life compared to the everlasting hereafter is like a drop of water in an ocean. I am only here as a traveler.

I accepted the fact that Allah works in his own mysterious ways, You only truly understand the Wisdom of Allah when Allah makes you understand it. to truly understand Allah and the choices he makes and how he runs the universe, you have to make some sacrifices in his path, that's why if you read the Qur'an you will notice the Prophets went through the greatest of all trials. I mean Prophet Ibrahim(May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) had a dream that Allah commanded him to sacrifice his son....the ultimate test of faith. He nor did his son didn't dare question the command...as a result of his sacrifice Allah accepted his sacrifice and raised his status in the hereafter. he made Ibrahim(A'laihis Salam) the father of the Islamic Nation

amar jatir pita Bongobondhu noy, amar jatir pita Ibrahim(A'laihis Salam)..My Nationality is Islam First and foremost then Bangladeshi, because this "Bangladeshi tag" will have absolutely no value in the after life...I love Bangaldesh and my Language with all my heart to the extent Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) Loved mecca and the Arabic language!


In the day of judgement: the sun will be brought near! very very very near. There will be no shade except the shade of Allah. Prophet Ibrahim(A'laihis Salaam) will be the first to be clothed..on this vey difficult day every Prophet will be given a "hauze" (a fountain or source of water whatever you want to call it) in arabic, (it is called Hauze kauthar)...Prophet Mohammad(May Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) will have the largest number of followers on that day and people will lineup to drink this water which originates from the rivers of jannah whose sweetness exceeds the sweetness of honey and once you drink even a sip of it you will never ever get thirsty ever again. so as Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) is distributing this water the angels will drive away a lot of people, Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) will be worried that why is some of his followers being deprived? Angel Gabriel(A'laihis Salaam) will respond: "these people after your departure, added things in Islam which You never approved of" Then prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) says: "oh then get out! get out of my sight!"

Dear Readers, I hope I am not of them

Salaam, Rifat
and here is my evidence to support it:
From Sahih Bukhari
Quote:
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 172 :

Narrated by Asma'
The Prophet said, "I will be at my Lake-Fount (Kauthar) waiting for whoever will come to me. Then some people will be taken away from me whereupon I will say, 'My followers!' It will be said, 'You do not know they turned Apostates as renegades (deserted their religion).'" (Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "Allah, we seek refuge with You from turning on our heels from the (Islamic) religion and from being put to trial").

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 173 :

Narrated by 'Abdullah
The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"


Volume 9, Book 88, Number 174 :

Narrated by Sahl bin Sa'd
I heard the Prophet saying, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar), and whoever will come to it, will drink from it, and whoever will drink from it, will never become thirsty after that. There will come to me some people whom I know and they know me, and then a barrier will be set up between me and them." Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri added that the Prophet further said: "I will say those people are from me. It will be said, 'You do not know what changes and new things they did after you.' Then I will say, 'Far removed (from mercy), far removed (from mercy), those who changed (the religion) after me!"
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  #114  
Old May 7, 2012, 09:20 AM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Okay, how about this?

Most of us have agreed or would agree that Hadiths are indeed not directly divine. So they're not infallible, however they still can carry wisdom for the mankind just like many other sources in life other than the religious texts have the abilities to benefit the mankind as well.

So just like say some book written by some random person, of which we may not take all to be of some use, but parts of it still may contain things worth following and abiding by.

Similarly, one can see Hadith books as books written presumably by a few pious people (we can't judge the intentions) with the intention of recording the prophet Muhammad (pbuh)'s sunnah. So now the knowledgable (the scholars etc.) among us today by using their Allah-given intellect (and not by taking any particular group of people's words for granted as they do in defining Hadiths as Sahih and Da'if) can analyse and scrutinise the Hadiths and portray the pros and cons attached to them (of course they reject the Hadiths straightaway if they are clear violations of the Qur'an). Then it's left for the general Muslims to decide whether to apply a particular wisdom mentioned in Hadiths in their lives based on how they see it would benefit them. But these in no way are imposed upon the mass to be compulsory etc.

Becuase I don't believe something would carry value just because a prophet has done it, but rather would carry value only because it's a good thing to do. Like I read in some Hadith that our prophet (pbuh) liked to eat sweets, but I don't think I will get any rewards for stacking up sweets after sweets, rather I believe the exactly opposite would be the case here. However, the prophet was sweet-mouthed and gentle in nature as well (the Hadiths say so in many places, albeit as well as saying the opposite in possibly as many places), and if we follow that characteristic of his, we'd surely get rewards but not for the sole reason it was from the Rasool, but because it is a good deed in itself.

May Allah forgive the errors I or any of us have made in portraying our views. Ameen.

Last edited by Purbasha T; May 7, 2012 at 10:20 AM..
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  #115  
Old May 7, 2012, 10:34 AM
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This is a subject that can be tackled only by competent scholars. Thus, I am going to limit my comments. Hadith is generally categorized in 4 categories: authentic, good, weak, and fabricated. The scholars have spent countless hours in finding sahih or authentic hadith and these hadith can be safely followed according to them.

You can find some additional info at:When you are looking, please make sure that you use a reliable source. There are many "bad" sites and books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purbasha T
If Hadiths are not 100%, how do we justify following them? After all, Islam was supposed to be a complete phenomena (thus implying the completeness of its constituents), no?!
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  #116  
Old May 7, 2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrequiem
Since it came up...

I have always heard about the quran being unchanged. Is there a proof of this phenomenon, or is it just something Muslims are expected to believe?
A couple of copies of the Qur'an that Uthman sent to various governors have survived. Orientalists have checked these books thoroughly and were unable to discredit the Qur'an. The only difference between those copies and current copies is that the Arabic script of those days did not have the vowels (above or below the letters) or the dots. Those were introduced later mainly for the benefit of non-Arabic speakers.
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  #117  
Old May 7, 2012, 10:47 AM
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Rifat Rifat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purbasha T
we follow that characteristic of his, we'd surely get rewards but not for the sole reason it was from the Rasool, but because it is a good deed in itself.

May Allah forgive the errors I or any of us have made in portraying our views. Ameen.
Purbasha,

I am sorry, I would disagree with this statement. With this assumption, you are not really following the messenger(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) are you? using this reasoning, we can follow anything from Buddhism, Christianity. Hinduism. Taoism...all I am saying is: Why do i care? Why I am telling you this? because now the action or your good deed is not for Allah, so it may be that you will not be rewarded for your action based on this intention. It is not befitting to let our efforts go to waste? is it?

Perhaps the issue would be crystal clear if we exactly examine and verify the authentic chain of the ahadiths! this is a whole science in and of itself. BanCricFan bro mashAllah(may Allah truly bless him and grant him true success and happiness both in this life and the hereafter) posted it earlier in another thread, I will just dig it up and repost inshaAllah! Clearly, during the lifetime of Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) he was the commander of the army, many "believers" disobeyed his commands and were labeled as hypocrites(Allah sent him letting him know who exactly were the Hypocrites but not revealing names in the public, but they were later exposed...and his closest companions knew too) the battle of Uhud is a perfect example of this. my point is even though We do not regard Ahadith as highly as the Qur'an, we do not reject them. This is stated many times in the Qur'an that whenever Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) speaks, we should not raise our voice or object to it. the following verse is just one instance of it. as Electrequiem bro many times pointed out, that Islam is a timeless religion MashAllah brother. I wholeheartedly concur with this notion! so if this command was applicable during the lifetime of the Prophet(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) then why can't it be applicable now? He passed away but his legacy, character, example, advice still lives on.





Quote:
Sahih International
O you who have believed, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet or be loud to him in speech like the loudness of some of you to others, lest your deeds become worthless while you perceive not.

Muhsin Khan
O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet (SAW), nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds may be rendered fruitless while you perceive not.

Pickthall
O ye who believe! Lift not up your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor shout when speaking to him as ye shout one to another, lest your works be rendered vain while ye perceive not.
Surah Hujurat, ayah 2(Chapter 49, verse 2)
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  #118  
Old May 7, 2012, 11:16 AM
09hotmail 09hotmail is offline
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Originally Posted by Rifat
I wholeheartedly concur with this notion! so if this command was applicable during the lifetime of the Prophet(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) then why can't it be applicable now? He passed away but his legacy, character, example, advice still lives on.
Are you joking or seriously write this.

Lot of command applicable during profet sallallaah lifetime,not now because but you do them now people call you mad. i said before and i say again , the point is not what Profet Salallaallah did but understand what the meaning and teaching not actual stuff like marry like ten plus time like him but maximum four if you can.

if you get like shaking in body and stuff like profet sallallah in wohi time he got like hot and shake, people put you in mad hospital for treatment for pagol or mental disease because you are in different time.

So i do not agree that it applicable now because different time now, like now i see somebody marry so many time, astagfirullah and marry so young, sick wak thu. But this was ok in old time especially if you get direct contact with allah so time different and not follow everything same is no make sense because Allah know best.
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  #119  
Old May 7, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Rifat Rifat is offline
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Originally Posted by 09hotmail
Are you joking or seriously write this.

Lot of command applicable during profet sallallaah lifetime,not now because but you do them now people call you mad. i said before and i say again , the point is not what Profet Salallaallah did but understand what the meaning and teaching not actual stuff like marry like ten plus time like him but maximum four if you can.

if you get like shaking in body and stuff like profet sallallah in wohi time he got like hot and shake, people put you in mad hospital for treatment for pagol or mental disease because you are in different time.

So i do not agree that it applicable now because different time now, like now i see somebody marry so many time, astagfirullah and marry so young, sick wak thu. But this was ok in old time especially if you get direct contact with allah so time different and not follow everything same is no make sense because Allah know best.
Thank you brother for your post! We should understand what it really means to "obey/follow the messenger" There are certain things only applicable to Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A"laihe wasallam) and not applicable to us. for example: The highly recommended night prayer was Obligatory for Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) but for us it is not obligatory but of great reward and a means to get closer to Allah. as we all know that in Islam, we can marry up to four. but if we cannot be just then we only stick to one(likely case for majority(around 90%) Muslim men in modern contemporary times). Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) was an exception.

Another example is after Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A"laihe wasallam) died, many of his wives were still alive. Allah strictly prohibited his wives from marrying again. now this only applies to the wives of Rasulullah(SalAllahu A"laihe wasallam). In Islam, if a women is widowed she can marry again.(This doesn't happen too often in Bangladeshi culture to the best of my knowledge, but it is ALLOWED in Islam and for no reason this action should be shunned or ostracized...Allah recognizes our inner nature/lust and by no means is monasticism is encouraged in Islam)

We should learn to differentiate between Culture from Islam!
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  #120  
Old May 7, 2012, 01:08 PM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Originally Posted by shuziburo
...
You can find some additional info at:
Quote:

...

The problem is that today many people regard the Sunnah and the Hadith as synonymous terms, whereas the two are quite distinct from each other. The Sunnah (or Sunnat-i-Thaabitah) refers to `those established customs of the Prophet (sws) that were passed on as religion to the Muslim Ummah by the Companions of the Prophet (sws) through their practical consensus on these customs or through their perpetual adherence to them. Therefore, there is no doubt about the authenticity of the Sunnah as an original source. Just as the Quran was perpetuated by oral transmission, the Sunnah was passed on by perpetual adherence. Hence, the authenticity of the Sunnah does not depend on the narratives told by a few individuals; the entire society in the Prophet's time adopted and transmitted the Sunnah, thereby making it an established fact of history.

A Hadith on the other hand, refers to a short narrative which describes a statement or an action or a tacit approval of the Prophet (sws). Most of these narratives were told by a few individuals at each link of the chain of narrators and, therefore, are very appropriately called Akhbaar-i-Ahaad.

...

A Hadith is accepted only when its authenticity has been established on the basis of both Fann-i-Riwaayat and Fann-i-Daraayat.

...

However, the following points must be kept in mind which stem from these criteria:

1. No Hadith can present anything as religion which does not have its basis in the Quran or the Sunnah or the established principles of human nature and intellect. Therefore, whatever a Hadith presents would either be an explanation of a principle found in these sources or a branch emanating from that principle.

2. A Hadith must not be against the Quran or the Sunnah or the established principles of human nature and intellect. In short, the Hadith in question must conform with the entire fabric of Islam.

3. A Hadith must have been transmitted by reliable sources.

The first two of these points relate to Fann-i-Daraayat and the last to Fann-i-Riwaayat.

Unfortunately, the scholars competent to analyse Ahaadith on the basis of these criteria are few, and the untrained eye is often confused while studying the Hadith. There are three major reasons for this confusion:

1. Almost all the available written collections of Ahaadith, including the most revered ones, contain those Ahaadith which were analysed primarily on the basis of Riwaayat. Most Ahaadith, therefore, have to be analysed further on the basis of Fann-i-Daraayat before they can be accepted or rejected.

2. In most cases the context of a Hadith is not clear or is even left out. The reason is that a typical Hadith is what is called Riwaayat-bil-Maa'naa, which refers to such a Hadith the narrators of which had not transmitted its exact subject-matter but had used their own words to convey the meaning.

3. Placing a Hadith in its right context is not the job of a layman. It requires a sound understanding and appreciation of the classics of Arabic literature of the Prophet's time and training in various disciplines necessary for understanding and analyzing any segment of the whole corpus of the sources of religious knowledge.

In short, analysis, in the true sense of the word, of this historical record---the Hadith---is the job of a scholar. Unfortunately, this confusion pertaining to Ahaadith has given rise to some adverse reactions. People who have shown such reactions can be classified into two categories:

1. There are those who have reacted by formulating the erroneous premise that the Hadith can in no way be a reliable source of religious knowledge. This reaction went beyond all proportion when they confused the Hadith with the Sunnah and then refused to accept even the Sunnah as an original source.

2. On the other hand are those who tried to defend the status of the Sunnah as an original source but in the process lost sight of what they were actually defending. They too have come to regard the Sunnah and the Hadith as one and the same thing. Therefore, they consider those Ahaadith which have already been evaluated on the basis of Fann-i-Riwaayat as an unchallengeable source of knowledge even where the possibility of further analysis on the basis of Fann-i-Daraayat clearly exists.

...
Finally!!! This is what I'd been crying out loud for. A REVISION (or the resumption of the paused analysis rather) of the Hadiths.

Quote:

...

Collecting the hadiths: Briefly, the great collectors of hadiths such as Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim followed a methodology that they collected everything that there was on a subject, and they marked down how authentic it was. Rather than discarding the material they felt was not wholly authentic, so that it became lost to history, they included it. This means that other scholars can examine the evidence for themselves, and make their own determination of what is authentic.

The above description of the methodology of the hadith collectors should make it abundantly clear why there are hadiths that appear to be contradictory, hadiths with variant wordings, and all the other problems with hadiths that the rejectors point to. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim, and the other great hadith collectors, were not incompetent. Rather, they saw their job to be preserving the evidence so that each later scholar could make his own determination.

Simply put, the rejectors are attempting to take the honesty of Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, and the others and to twist it to prove their own point.


There is no reason for any Muslim to be confused or feel doubt because of variant hadiths in the collections. It is simply a matter of learning about the methodologies and procedures of the scholars.

...
Thanks, this is what I've always believed. There had to be a difference between the sunnah established in the community and the Hadiths compiled centuries after. Now for the scholars to get back to the minefield again in their attempts at digging gold (but is that happening anytime soon?).

However, the clash of 3 prayers in the Qur'an versus 5 prayers in the Hadiths (or Sunnah rather?) remains.

Last edited by Purbasha T; May 7, 2012 at 02:17 PM..
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  #121  
Old May 7, 2012, 01:14 PM
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BANFAN BANFAN is offline
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Originally Posted by Purbasha T
we follow that characteristic of his, we'd surely get rewards but not for the sole reason it was from the Rasool, but because it is a good deed in itself..
.....And consistent with Allah's instructions in Quran.

I absolutely agree to this statement and Rifat bro, I don't think that the verse you quoted is anyway relevant to this statement.
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  #122  
Old May 7, 2012, 01:28 PM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
Purbasha,
I am sorry, I would disagree with this statement. With this assumption, you are not really following the messenger(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) are you? using this reasoning, we can follow anything from Buddhism, Christianity. Hinduism. Taoism...
Rifat bhai, are you trying to say if I do follow anything from any other religion as long as it doesn't contradict with the Islamic teachings, that's still wrong? I would disagree to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
...
Clearly, during the lifetime of Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) he was the commander of the army, many "believers" disobeyed his commands and were labeled as hypocrites(Allah sent him letting him know who exactly were the Hypocrites but not revealing names in the public, but they were later exposed...and his closest companions knew too) the battle of Uhud is a perfect example of this. my point is even though We do not regard Ahadith as highly as the Qur'an, we do not reject them. This is stated many times in the Qur'an that whenever Prophet Mohammad(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) speaks, we should not raise our voice or object to it. the following verse is just one instance of it. as Electrequiem bro many times pointed out, that Islam is a timeless religion MashAllah brother. I wholeheartedly concur with this notion! so if this command was applicable during the lifetime of the Prophet(SalAllahu A'laihe wasallam) then why can't it be applicable now? He passed away but his legacy, character, example, advice still lives on.
There are many verses in the Qur'an that are specific to certain events and occasions, why cannot this be viewed in the same regard? Why can't we view those verses of ''obeying the messenger'' as specifically directed to the people who were present at the time of the prophet (pbuh)?

For instance, because the prophet's not here today, the ''don't raise your voice in the prophet's presence'' would not apply to us today as if the prophet's not present, raising our voices over his is a non-issue. Most probably (as you've mentioned about late night prayers among others) the prophet had indeed been receiving commandments about many things which were only meant for him. Similarly, he may have also been receiving commandments about how to deal with certain situations around him at that time and while he was carrying out those orders, the contemporary believers were ordered to follow the prophet without asking any questions. Isn't that a likelier scenario?
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  #123  
Old May 7, 2012, 01:46 PM
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Simply put, the rejectors are attempting to take the honesty of Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, and the others and to twist it to prove their own point.
Rejectors are merely maintaining a neutral position by not crediting or discrediting anyone of the imams. If they are following only Quran, they are not trying to prove any point regrading the imams or themselves. If you are rejecting bible, are you rejecting Jesus or the imams who wrote it and trying to prove your own point? NO, you are just doing it because Allah says so in Quran.

While the acceptors are placing complete trust on them, do they have any proof that the imams did it with complete honesty & they are 100% correct? How do they know? Because of their dress or what. Hard work? If hard work was a measure, then a Hindu believer walking 20/30 km on his knees and going to the Mandir to please that god/statue does harder work... Will Allah be kind with him according to Islam?? Imam of Kataban mosque preaches everything right, with his political agenda?? My friend ... None except Allah knows the heart of a person and why who did, what he did. I saw Muslims in Maizbhandar with full Islamic getup, all day and all night praying in front of the grave and doing sejda... Doing Shirk... Very hard work... Is he doing it right?? I have seen dedicated Moulanas, spent their all life prying, but they tell things or hide things according to the desire of the kings /brutal dictators.... Who knows who was pleasing whom??

So how can you trust someone blindly while there is no mandate from Allah? Even the messengers with a perfect book and msg still struggling to convince the mankind, while a few imams with erroneous books should be readily trusted for their truthfulness?? Just because they reffered to the prophet?? Isn't it a blind faith??

I don't want to go detils on every line there in that post... Why people should follow Hadith...you may use your own judgement.
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Last edited by BANFAN; May 8, 2012 at 01:26 AM..
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  #124  
Old May 7, 2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purbasha T
Rifat bhai, are you trying to say if I do follow anything from any other religion as long as it doesn't contradict with the Islamic teachings, that's still wrong? I would disagree to that.



There are many verses in the Qur'an that are specific to certain events and occasions, why cannot this be viewed in the same regard? Why can't we view those verses of ''obeying the messenger'' as specifically directed to the people who were present at the time of the prophet (pbuh)?

For instance, because the prophet's not here today, the ''don't raise your voice in the prophet's presence'' would not apply to us today as if the prophet's not present, raising our voices over his is a non-issue. Most probably (as you've mentioned about late night prayers among others) the prophet had indeed been receiving commandments about many things which were only meant for him. Similarly, he may have also been receving commandments about how to deal with certain situations around him at that time and while he was carrying out those orders, the contemporary believers were ordered to follow the prophet without asking any questions. Isn't that a likelier scenario?
yes, you are absolutely right.

Brother Purbasha,

What I am trying to say is:

Quote:
Rifat bhai, are you trying to say if I do follow anything from any other religion as long as it doesn't contradict with the Islamic teachings, that's still wrong? I would disagree to that.
of course, you can! No one is forcing you to do (or not do) anything. I am not responsible for your deeds. What my point is that, any deed that is done not for the sake of Allah, don't expect any reward from him; or if you do anything that is not from Islam and doesn't contradict Islam, you can still do(Who am I to tell you what to do and not do or how to live your life, I can only advise and after you listen to my advice it is up to your discretion) as long as you don't promote it as "Islam"...that's all I am trying to say.


About your latter point, there are verses that calls us to obey his commands in the general sense! This is why it is good to read the tafsir because then we know when exactly the Verse was revealed, and the to whom the verse applies to and how is it relevant to us today? There are many verses in the Qur'an Allah talks to the Disbeliever! There are many verses in the Qur'an Allah talks to the people of the book. There are many verses in the Qur'an where Allah talks directly to the Prophet!
There are many verses in the Qur'an where Allah talks directly to the Believers. There are many verses addressing the HumanKind(The verse I quoted started off with Ya Ayyuhallazina Amanu...OH You who Believe!) You don't get any of that when you just read the translation and just by that it is open to your interpretation and understanding which may or may not be correct as we are human.

Forgive me if i come off as condescending, because I am learning each and every single day and I am not posting to hurt you or anyone else's feelings.

Salaam, Rifat
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  #125  
Old May 7, 2012, 02:14 PM
Purbasha T Purbasha T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rifat
yes, you are absolutely right.

Brother Purbasha,

What I am trying to say is:

of course, you can! No one is forcing you to do (or not do) anything. I am not responsible for your deeds. What my point is that, any deed that is done not for the sake of Allah, don't expect any reward from him; or if you do anything that is not from Islam and doesn't contradict Islam, you can still do(Who am I to tell you what to do and not do or how to live your life, I can only advise and after you listen to my advice it is up to your discretion) as long as you don't promote it as "Islam"...that's all I am trying to say.
I should've phrased my question correctly, ''is that still Qur'anically wrong?'' Surely there may be a thing or two I can learn from people who're inspired by other books which may've been from Allah originally! And about promoting it as Islam: here we come to discussing how we define Islam, which I think we should put a halt to for now.

Quote:
About your latter point, there are verses that calls us to obey his commands in the general sense! This is why it is good to read the tafsir because then we know when exactly the Verse was revealed, and the to whom the verse applies to and how is it relevant to us today? There are many verses in the Qur'an Allah talks to the Disbeliever! There are many verses in the Qur'an Allah talks to the people of the book. There are many verses in the Qur'an where Allah talks directly to the Prophet!
There are many verses in the Qur'an where Allah talks directly to the Believers. There are many verses addressing the HumanKind(The verse I quoted started off with Ya Ayyuhallazina Amanu...OH You who Believe!) You don't get any of that when you just read the translation and just by that it is open to your interpretation and understanding which may or may not be correct as we are human.
I may have to come back later on this one. Your style!

Quote:
Forgive me if i come off as condescending, because I am learning each and every single day and I am not posting to hurt you or anyone else's feelings.

Salaam, Rifat
No way, if our sole intention is to learn rather than to boost our ego, then just because a point of ours is refuted, it shouldn't in any way hurt us. If it does, we shouldn't be here in the first place.

Walaikum Salam, Purbasha (err.. that's not my name actually, I think it's time I change it to my original ).
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